TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

EvilJohn wrote: Weird thought -- why not have 2 of the same class? Would it really break things that badly? Maybe dis-incentivize it so both players take a penalty, like -5hp?

MasterED wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Perhaps some sort of incentive or minor reward for thre person giving up the class card? A “token of gratitude” (pun totally intended) if you will?

A great idea if there weren't jerks. Then there will be jerks who get there early just to take other's classes to get the tokens.

Ed

Just to bring in an idea from another thread - what if the token you get for giving up a character card could be instantly redeemed to use the alternate version of that class for that run only?

jedibcg wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

This is the type of idiots I attract.

So you disagreed on how you should play is there the need to insult another player you disagree with? I am not saying she was right or wrong just no need to call someone an idiot for disagreeing with your play style. I don’t have enough context because I don’t know what you said to the NPC.

Clearly you did not read the whole story, Jedi. Anyone who tells fellow party member else how they should play or not play their character is the definition of "idiot."

But let's keep this thread on topic, shall we? Can we all agree that whatever rule TD lands-on should be...

1) Quick to decide who gets what. (Minimize time wasted.)

2) Absolute. (Minimize time wasted.)

I'm not buying the "elitest" rhetoric in regards to the 3rd level priority because as others have said...

1) Why focus on this particular element of elitism TD when there are so many other elitist elements in TD? If we draw a line here, why not eliminate those as well? (RoSP special class vouchers, Legendary tokens, GT runs, Realm of L&L, etc.)

2) Players can get to 3rd level playing at one or two cons which means the conflict goes directly to a roll-off where both players on equal footing.

I've only invoked the 3rd level rule once and that's because a fellow vet was being a jerk to impress his friends and as others have said, every single other time, I have gone with the flow and chosen another class.

The existing rule or any new rule will not prevent hard feelings from the person who doesn't get what they want. What more is there to discuss?

The player XP system is a loyalty rewards program. Labeling any aspect of it “elitist” feels way off base to me. TD rewards are no more elitist than frequent flyer miles or perqs from your local grocery store, so we shouldn’t perpetuate that pejorative terminology.

That said, I don’t care about the level 3 reward. We either buy out runs or join people on the forums who did, and therefore we avoid all these problems. We’ve always been able to pre-arrange all the runs we wanted. Maybe we’ve just been lucky, but there are a lot more extroverted people who have more connections than I, so I doubt it.

But I know that it’s hard to find a totally empty run because people randomly buy one or two tix here and there, so I agree, sell 20+% of tickets as ten-packs so that more veterans can avoid these problems, too.

Then any veterans who refuse to set up runs ahead of time on the forums will have no excuse and have created their own drama, and I’ll have no sympathy for them, even if they got one of the new class-specific legendaries (which can only make these problems worse) that they can’t use.

If you do a PUG, you have to be flexible. Newbies have no way of knowing about the forums so they get a pass, and should get first picks.

IMO, YMMV, and whatever

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

This is the type of idiots I attract.

So you disagreed on how you should play is there the need to insult another player you disagree with? I am not saying she was right or wrong just no need to call someone an idiot for disagreeing with your play style. I don’t have enough context because I don’t know what you said to the NPC.

Clearly you did not read the whole story, Jedi. Anyone who tells fellow party member else how they should play or not play their character is the definition of "idiot."

Naw. She was an idiot and jerk because she tried to force her ideals on someone that clearly wasn't offended. I despise people that do this.

In my example... Rybak got quite flirty. The NPC was not offended. So this idiot decided to be offended for the NPC. I'm surprised this idiot didn't start preaching to the NPC how she should have been offended and how she isn't a decent and moral person for not being offended.

Um ok that was awkward

I’d love to see a way to we could avoid class choice conflicts (CCC)
At Origins my buddy and I got there early and chose our classes. The coach recorded our stats. 7 others did the same. After the start time a seasoned vet walks in, asks who’s playing X and my buddy says that he is. The vet proceeds to throw his phone down in front of us with the TD character creator build showing, as if to say- “can you beat this?!?” My buddy refused to surrender the class, as the stats were already recorded and the coach wasn’t having anyone switch at that point. The vet whined and cried for ten min but then got over it.
First come first served is the practical approach unless you change the entire ticketing process as suggested above.
Roll off if necessary, but I’d be ok with abolishing the 3rd lvl exemption. It would be great not to have the anxiety of class choice walkjng into the room. I play primarily only one class so far and really like it. I *should* expand my ability to play more classes, but would love to know which I’m playing before I walk in.

How about we all take a deep breath, relax, and chill before making another post. Perhaps even bring this thread back on topic?

Kirk Bauer wrote: This is a rule I have never used, never will use, and personally dislike:

truedungeon.com/how-to-play/item/12-rewards

You get first pick of character class before 1st and 2nd level players. (All 3rd level or higher players will roll off for order of choosing*.)

I'm not posting because I don't like it, nor has it ever happened to me or anybody I know. I'm posting because I heard (second-hand) two experiences of this happening at GenCon. I didn't hear it from the people who had a class taken from them, just from people who saw it happen or possibly happening and didn't like it. I also think it's bad for the game.

I did not personally witness these situations nor do I know who was involved. In both cases I heard from somebody who witnessed or overheard the situation. Based on the sources, I do consider these to be reputable reports even though they are second hand.

Situation 1

Player has arrived early to the event and has selected a class in the coaching room. The player has already completed their build. Veteran player arrives approx. 15 minutes after the posted start time. Player says "Has class XYZ been taken?" and the answer was yes. Veteran says "Do you have a Medallion of Nobility, because if not I'm taking that class". Coach explains it is actually Level 3, not Level 5 that matters and actually they would need to roll off if both players were Level 3+. Before that can happen the first player voluntarily gives up the class but clearly wasn't happy about it.

Situation 2

Group of 8 veterans check in for a run and find that 2 wristbands are already taken. Veterans say something along the lines of "hopefully we don't have to pull rank and take their classes when we get to the coaching room".

Now I don't know what happened in the coaching room, but imagine the worst case scenario. Those two wristbands were being worn by two brand new players who had in fact arrived early and selected their classes and were really excited to play. Veterans walk in and take those classes away from them. I have no idea if it did happen, but it could have. Those two players could have been future volunteers, future token collectors, etc, that fresh blood that keeps the game going. But if this scenario actually happened, and I had been one of those possible newbie players, I doubt I would have been back to play True Dungeon.

Outdated & Elitist

I also think this policy is outdated. Back in the day, you couldn't hit 3rd Level for a few years, and hitting 3rd level was a bit of a deal. Now you can hit 3rd level in a year (if my math is correct). So effectively this allows anybody who has played at least a little bit take classes from somebody who hasn't played before, or much at all.

Also I think it would come across as elitist to anybody on the receiving end of the "class take-over".

My suggestion: completely remove this perk. Change the policy to first-come, first-served. This will encourage people to arrive early (or buy out and pre-arrange runs).

Alternative suggestion: If we have to have this, make the cutoff the start time, which seems to be in the spirit of the actual wording. If the start time is 7PM and somebody shows up at 7:01PM in the coaching room, too bad.

+1 completely agree on removing it. It is confusing for new players and discourages in working things out like adults.

Sure

Just to throw out a balancing narrative. I recall one instance where I going on a pug run because I used to like to do that at least once a year to meet new people. I arrived 30 minutes early, as did another player. The assists hadn’t yet reset the room so we were both asked to wait a moment while they got it ready for us. The other player proceeded to disregard this and take the class cards directly from the assist who was resetting the room so he could snag his preferred class (which also happened to be my preferred class), as it turns out he was new but had a preferred class from D&D and he was not going to be told he didn’t get to play it. I let him have it because I had to spend 2 hours trying to cooperate with him but it wasn’t a great experience, just food for thought really. My point being whatever policy changes we recommend should not paint one group of players exclusively as the villains of the situation.

Very fair point. jerks are jerks as others have said whatever their level of play.

Picc wrote: My point being whatever policy changes we recommend should not paint one group of players exclusively as the villains of the situation.

+1
Conflicts are a rare occurrence, the overwhelming majority of the TD community knows the deal, are welcoming and very flexible with switching classes. (Sometimes we are over accommodating to noobs.) Leave the current rules in place, they were created for a reason.

On top of that, if someone is acting like a complete A-hole and attempts to pull rank on someone new that's is when I would happily pull rank on them to get that noob the class that they want. Sometimes unruly animals need to be reigned in, I would like to retain that ability as a "break in case of emergency" situation.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Picc wrote: My point being whatever policy changes we recommend should not paint one group of players exclusively as the villains of the situation.

Sometimes unruly animals need to be reigned in, I would like to retain that ability as a "break in case of emergency" situation.

I feel like someone would just pull rank on you and it would round robin until everyone is mad. I am in favour of eliminating the 3rd level in favour of first-come first served. For disagreements that is where the coach should be able to step in and mediate. I have seen instances where "it is already written down" and so they won't switch (good), I have seen the occasional party card with double classes, we have two wizards and two fighters for a reason. And then I think most folk come here to pre-arrange classes before their run anyway as if they can, veterans that care deeply will buy the whole run.

In the case of veteran vs newbie: my position is newbie should have their choice. If you have 15 runs that weekend, what is giving one or two up really going to cost you? And for that new player, being struck down with the "I'm a veteran player so you can't play that" is just a horrible introduction to what is, and should be, a co operative game.