TOPIC: Safehold I and Mythic Token Ideas

Following my own suggestion about separating some of this discussion into separate threads, I started one about my thoughts on difficulties.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=762&id=258332

And I have now created one for discussion of the transmute costs:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=762&id=258333

And now one just to discuss the intent of mythic tokens

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=762&id=258334

Jeff, if you prefer everything just all mixed together into this thread, let me know and I'll copy / paste my thoughts here.

Adding a few of my own thoughts below. If I understand correctly, Hardcore difficulty will be remaining and all runs will grant survivor pins regardless of difficulty, so nothing further to add there.

1) Why does Mythic need to be a replacement for Epic instead of something additional? This would effectively just make it a rename rather than something new, and would leave quite a large gap between Nightmare and Mythic for people whose token level falls somewhere between the two (there's already a large and growing gap between Nightmare and Epic, which would only grow larger if Epic were removed and a harder Mythic level added).

2) Agree with this, if Mythic tokens are going to be something exclusive and expensive then they should either not be class-restricted or there should be no more than one for each class.

3) and 4) I've posted some thoughts on costs in Endgame's separate thread.

5) This is a big one. I agree it would be good to have a damage cap in place as a way of encouraging build diversity and reining in power creep. But if a cap is introduced, in my opinion there MUST be separate caps for non-crits vs crits, for example 100 and 150. Otherwise, this is going to heavily punish any classes designed to have easy access to expanded crit ranges - after all, why increase your base damage past 50 if the rest of the damage is going to be wasted at semi-random several times per run? Conversely classes which do not generally rely on expanded crit ranges would be free to build for consistently high damage in the knowledge that they are unlikely to exceed the cap. I think it would also work well to have separate caps per difficulty, this would be a great way of balancing PUGs where there is a big difference in gear between players.

6) I'm not sure there is a need to make the Coin of Wealth 3x more expensive than anything else if it's expected to be the only token some Safehold I owners ever make. It will already take more effort/expense than 99% of players will ever achieve just to get to Safehold 1 and then craft a mythic token on top of that.

7) Strongly agree that mythic tokens should remain simple and be an extension of existing transmute recipes rather than having their own separate process and ingredients.

8) I am undecided on this one, it's probably best if the minority of players who are likely to ever craft mythic tokens express their thoughts on whether there should only ever be 12.

Quick idea, allow mythic tokens to give some kind of multiclass ability. Figurine of Power: Rogue allows another class to do a sneak attack, etc (limit 1 multiclass per character).

Some basic ideas around mythic. First - please don't cap damage or take that approach. I posted a suggestion for how to rebalance difficulty for mythic that won't diminish any existing tokens or abilities. I posted that under Endgame's thread talking about difficulty.
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=762&id=258332

As for tokens, etc for Mythic, I'd like to see the following:
1 - You qualify for mythic by having a Safehold 1. Considering the resources needed to get there, being the master of a level 1 Safehold makes you a "Mythic" adventurer.
2 - If you do a Mythic run, you get a different character card with your character being Level 7 (yes - skipping level 6 so one day the other tiers can have a level 6 option that wouldn't conflict with Mythic.) Ideally, this would include the class revamp - if not, just add on the 6th and 7th level elements that would normally happen via 3rd edition rules (casters getting additional spells and a 4th level spell, additional class abilities, etc..) Maybe even give martial characters (barb/fighter/dw fighter/ranger) a second attack with their main-hand or two-handed weapon.
3 - Players with a safehold 1 get a new lanyard that is golden or similar as an easy flag for DMs that the person has mythic tokens (and just nice to have for the players).

In terms of tokens, here are my suggestions: (all could be used in non-mythic runs)
Gloves of Sure Attacks: +1 to hit AND you are given your own golden slider that you can use and keep (normal size slider so not conflicting with Smak's.) It has your name printed on it and cannot be transferred to someone else.
Censer of regeneration: heal 5 hp/room and 2/run you can repair a dead PC body enough for it to be raised (fixing if disintegrated, sliced into chunks, turned to salt and crushed, etc..)
Meta Lenses: You can read the monster stats as if you were playing a video game on easy mode (only works in combat rooms.)
Boots of Flying: You can fly at will - no action required just regular movement
Achilles Armor: +15 to AC, armor is immune to being damaged or subject to heat metal, DR 2 against everything (including eldritch), crit dmg is reduced by 50%
Gem of focus: (treated as a permanent runestone and applied to mainhand focus item) +5 focus, +25% to overcoming magic resistance, and recover 5 levels of spells per run (split out however you'd like)
Book of Ultimate Scrolls: You may use scrolls as a free action, you can use any scroll of any level 2/run without turning it in and +3 to healing or damage from them
Quiver of returning: Arrows used return to user 2/day and +3 to missile attack to hit and damage

Here are my hot takes in no particular order

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• Safe hold 1 itself should be the token that unlocks mythic play. Building it takes time and a lot of resources; it should come with an exciting reward.


• The “mythic avarice” token should require a mythic transmuter. This goal should not be ease of access. Personally, I would also just have it make all TEs slot less rather than offering more chips, that’s still a huge bonus.


• Mythic items should timeless and either upgraded from non-class legendries OR made from in print relics sharing an item type with them + mythic transmuters (i.e. any in print relic sword + a transmuter could be used to make Excalibur.) This would get prevent a glut of unwanted legendries & future proof the design while keeping value to the mythic transmuters.


• All existing difficulties should stay, but pins should be limited to survivor and “Mythic survivor”. The difficulties themselves should also be a little more uniform in terms of their stat progression.


• Mythic difficulty itself should require unanimous consent from the group and grant nothing more than the mythic pin, though it would be cool if we could keep the idea of a separate mythic leader board.


• Mythic difficulty itself should scale so people always have something to push against. ie Mythic 1, Mythic 2, etc.


• Each level mythic scaling should do 3 things.
  A ) double monster HP,
  B ) Increase all monster AC & save DC by 10,
  C ) Give monsters the ability to shadow skin the first X spells cast against them per combat where X is the mythic level (ie on mythic 1 wizards would need to fire off a scroll before their regular high damage cast. On mythic 2, two scrolls.)




• Pie in the sky suggestion for mythic items, maybe make them two sided poker chips. They could then have a regular side and an awakened side. There could then be some hoop to jump through (sliding a 20 for example, sacrificing some life, turning in some consumables, etc) to awaken the item for the remainder of the room. This would give people epic moments while still letting them keep their items regular side up for less difficult runs. Mythic runs could just always keep the items on their awakened side.

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Some actual item suggestions

• Excalibur, the sword of King Arthur
• Longinus, the Spear of Destiny
• Gáe Bulg – The barbed spear of Cú Chulainn
• Ruyi Jingu Bang, the staff of Sun Wukong
• The Emerald Tablet, said to contain the secrets of alchemy
• Mjolnir, Thor’s hammer
• The Book of Thoth, A books said to contain the knowledge of the gods
• The Seven-League Boots, said to let the wearer traverse vast distances in a single step.
• The Necronomicon, the infamous book of eldritch horrors.
• The Seal of Solomon, the ring that granted King Solomon dominion over demons and spirits.

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Some effect suggestions that aren’t just big damage wheels.

• Sunder the monsters armor reducing it by 10 AC
• Grant unlimited use of an as a spell damage spell until the end of the room
• Grant a stacking +1 hit/damage effect for each 20 slid during the combat.
• Grant the party full damage immunity for 1 round
• Give a melee character X3 crit or double damage
• Goad a monster so that it must attack you and only you exclusively until you or it are dead
• Make retribution apply against all incoming damage.
• Automatically change incoming eldritch damage to another type.
• Your potion effects apply to entire party

Jeff Martin wrote: 1. Is a token still going to be required to play Mythic Difficulty? Hmmm...good question. I'd say yes.

I do not agree with removing Epic DR in favor of Mythic and requiring a token to play. One or the other is fine, but not both.

A significant portion of players -including myself - are capable of playing Epic, but aren’t planning to build SH1s in the near future. Locking us out of the highest difficulty leaves us over-geared for nightmare and with little appetite to get new tokens.

Grizwald wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think things posted by Jeff in the "Token Proclamations" section of the forums carry more weight than future looking token designs found in in frequently revised PDFs.

True Dungeon has an established way to finalize / "officially publish" token designs. It does this by placing those designs in the TokenDB. Safehold I's design, and its proposed Slotless Nugget ability, are not recorded in TokenDB.

Because of this, I think it's best to consider those designs provisional works in progress, which are subject to change. Indeed these designs have changed several times already, and it would be unsurprising if they change more before being finalized and placed in TokenDB.

For what it's worth, I know the Safehold I Slotless Nugget benefits wasn't in the Safehold document as of February of 2024, and that it was added on or before June of 2024.

By your logic, Safehold tokens do nothing. The TokenDB entry for Safehold V doesn't say anything about using Hirelings, it directs you to go here: truedungeon.com/safehold . Which directs you to truedungeon.com/files/Safehold_Program_Details.pdf .

Surely you can understand there is a difference between:
* A token existing in TokenDB, and directing you to an external resource
* A token not existing in TokenDB


Anyway - I feel our relative points have been made clearly enough - anyone reading this can judge for themselves whether or not TDs statements about Safehold I functionality is as sacrosanct as their posts in the Token Proclomations thread.

Also bringing a back an old idea for quests.

We design the mythic items, then say they cannot be crafted until the community completes a quest of some sort. If for example Excalibur was gated behind a quest for the community to turn in 1000 dwarven steel for example, it could be a way to meet the goal consuming lots of trade goods while keeping the "cost" of making an Excalibur to the desired somewhat more expensive than a legendary without being to crazy.

Picc wrote: Also bringing a back an old idea for quests.

We design the mythic items, then say they cannot be crafted until the community completes a quest of some sort. If for example Excalibur was gated behind a quest for the community to turn in 1000 dwarven steel for example, it could be a way to meet the goal consuming lots of trade goods while keeping the "cost" of making an Excalibur to the desired somewhat more expensive than a legendary without being to crazy.

To piggy back of this idea, perhaps unlocking new mythic tokens can require successfully completing mythic runs. Maybe this is a static "the community completes X mythic runs" or "completing a mythic run gives an obscure clue to help solve a puzzle that unlocks this" or anything in between.

I personally love mechanics that make us interact more with the community. Even if it's just a soft encouragement to try and plan more mythic runs together

Had another idea for a token.

Mythic Toothpick of Slaying - +10 Piercing Damage and Greater Life Stealing, any "20".heals wearer for 20.