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TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #1

This is a rule I have never used, never will use, and personally dislike:

truedungeon.com/how-to-play/item/12-rewards

You get first pick of character class before 1st and 2nd level players. (All 3rd level or higher players will roll off for order of choosing*.)


I'm not posting because I don't like it, nor has it ever happened to me or anybody I know. I'm posting because I heard (second-hand) two experiences of this happening at GenCon. I didn't hear it from the people who had a class taken from them, just from people who saw it happen or possibly happening and didn't like it. I also think it's bad for the game.

I did not personally witness these situations nor do I know who was involved. In both cases I heard from somebody who witnessed or overheard the situation. Based on the sources, I do consider these to be reputable reports even though they are second hand.

Situation 1

Player has arrived early to the event and has selected a class in the coaching room. The player has already completed their build. Veteran player arrives approx. 15 minutes after the posted start time. Player says "Has class XYZ been taken?" and the answer was yes. Veteran says "Do you have a Medallion of Nobility, because if not I'm taking that class". Coach explains it is actually Level 3, not Level 5 that matters and actually they would need to roll off if both players were Level 3+. Before that can happen the first player voluntarily gives up the class but clearly wasn't happy about it.

Situation 2

Group of 8 veterans check in for a run and find that 2 wristbands are already taken. Veterans say something along the lines of "hopefully we don't have to pull rank and take their classes when we get to the coaching room".

Now I don't know what happened in the coaching room, but imagine the worst case scenario. Those two wristbands were being worn by two brand new players who had in fact arrived early and selected their classes and were really excited to play. Veterans walk in and take those classes away from them. I have no idea if it did happen, but it could have. Those two players could have been future volunteers, future token collectors, etc, that fresh blood that keeps the game going. But if this scenario actually happened, and I had been one of those possible newbie players, I doubt I would have been back to play True Dungeon.

Outdated & Elitist

I also think this policy is outdated. Back in the day, you couldn't hit 3rd Level for a few years, and hitting 3rd level was a bit of a deal. Now you can hit 3rd level in a year (if my math is correct). So effectively this allows anybody who has played at least a little bit take classes from somebody who hasn't played before, or much at all.

Also I think it would come across as elitist to anybody on the receiving end of the "class take-over".

My suggestion: completely remove this perk. Change the policy to first-come, first-served. This will encourage people to arrive early (or buy out and pre-arrange runs).

Alternative suggestion: If we have to have this, make the cutoff the start time, which seems to be in the spirit of the actual wording. If the start time is 7PM and somebody shows up at 7:01PM in the coaching room, too bad.
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Last edit: by Kirk Bauer.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #2

Agree with removing this perk.

Work it out like adults or have everyone roll and pick highest to lowest then decide on difficulty.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #3

I would like to add one other reason to eliminate this perk: confusion as to what this actually means. Even among my friends who understand TD in a pretty decent way, there's pretty consistent confusion between player level and player-character level. Even if you ask about this in the coaching room and try to pull rank, a lot of people point to their character cards and say: "I'm 4th level; see!".

I actually seriously considered using this perk this year when i showed up about 20 minutes early to a run to find that someone had sniped about 4 classes for friends that would "be there soon". I did have a discussion with the person who showed up about 10 minutes later, and wound up just dropping it because group discord is more deadly than any monster.

I landed on playing Bard as it was one of the remaining classes, and ended up enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would. To the point of seriously considering taking that up as a primary class. Also wound up lending parts of my build to the player who had the class I wanted to make sure he knew there were no hard feelings, which helped solidify the group.

So, long way around to say that if you can't get exactly what you want, try something new. It may be enjoyable. And the people who know about this perk likely have the ability to run just about any class anyhow.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #4

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the 3rd level player bonus.

That said, I really dislike the suggestion - "Just buy out a run." It's very difficult to accomplish. I saw many examples this year of veteran groups that were only able to get 7 or 8 tickets on the LFO threads this year.

We've gotten to the point that some runs need to be sold as a pack of 10. It won't fix everything, but it will go some way in helping the situation.

First-come first-serve would have its own issues as well. How early are you able to check in? Do I stop stacking runs lest I forfeit my ability to check in early? It just creates a line/queue situation that I'm sure the check-in desks don't want to deal with.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #5

I'm 100% behind getting rid of this. We do the opposite, new players get first choice, and they usually pick a combat class.

But I don't like first come first served as an alternative. I think it should be worked out between the group, with die rolls determining who gets a particular class if more than one person wants it.

I'm OK if someone arrives after some preset cutoff point that they would pick from what's left.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #6

I’m fine getting rid of it. I did hear one player complain about their class being taken from them in an earlier run this year.

Third level is meaningless as you can easily get it in one year, Just run all three dungeons.

For that matter, Fifth level is pretty trivial as well. Get hooked with some groups running hardcore and you are there in two years. Maybe move the Medallion of Nobility and Lords and Ladies status to 6th level. That also cleans up any issues around the Medallion as proof for the bonus treasure chip.


First come, first served is often how it currently plays out, even if it’s not official.

While the rule is you can enter coaching 30 minutes early, the event description says check n 10 minutes early.

And I’ve certainly seen people in coaching rooms more than 30 minutes early. Not worth chasing them if they are not interfering with another group.

Make first come first served the hard and fast rule and both those things become potential problems. In any case who is going to police that. Unless there is a coach in the room how do you sort out who got there first?
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Last edit: by Harlax.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #7

Totally agree we should just get rid of it. It's not something I would ever use, as I agree, it does feel elitist.

I'm also in the camp of letting new players pick first. Although, when it does hit the official start time, I will usually then select from what's left allowing myself some time to modify a build if it's not one I'm used to playing. Let's face it, if you're a veteran player with a nightmare build and you're running with new players, how hard is it to put together some sort of build for almost any class?

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #8

If you want a new level reward, here's one that occurred to me during the con. Can you come up with some sort of lanyard that works with the character cards, something a little more permanent that players can reuse from run to run? Sure, it costs a little money to supply them, but you'll make it up eventually with needing fewer of the strings that always seem to run out at some point.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #9

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Dave wrote: Totally agree we should just get rid of it. It's not something I would ever use, as I agree, it does feel elitist.

I'm also in the camp of letting new players pick first. Although, when it does hit the official start time, I will usually then select from what's left allowing myself some time to modify a build if it's not one I'm used to playing. Let's face it, if you're a veteran player with a nightmare build and you're running with new players, how hard is it to put together some sort of build for almost any class?


On all of my runs (where I buy all 10 tickets). I always have those with fewest runs pick first and move up until I pick last (having played more than anyone in my groups). I also pick last in all pug runs. I however don't know that this is the answer for everyone. If you have been playing for 15 years and only get to do 1 run at Gen Con, I think you have as valid a desire to play a particular class as any one else that only gets 1 run at Gen Con. It could be argued either to appease the vet or the new player, I am not weighing in on either side in this example.

For those advocating first come first served for character picking. Would you recommend first into the room or first to get their wristband. Just curious. Are we going to start seeing players waiting to check-in for runs or waiting outside the coaching room to take a seat as soon as one is vacated by the previous party?

I guess in a perfect world the ticketing system would have you pick your class when you buy your ticket, but we all know that is not happening.

I don't think removing the bonus is going to fix the problem. Asses are still going to be asses, I say this as someone that considers himself an ass. When I want to be an ass, I will find a way. You picked before me, I can still be an ass to attempt get the class I want. If a party cannot work together to pick classes then I would not want to be part of that party because I fear how they would work together in the dungeon, but that is me.
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Last edit: by jedibcg.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #10

I don't like first come first at all, ut leads to other issues. How nearly is early? I show up at 0800 pick up my event ticket for 1400?

Working things out like adults doesn't always work. Two people want to play ranger, one with Legendary bow and the +1 red bow. The person with the red bow stood firm on the ranger class. They decided to roll off and the legendary bowl user won.
There needs to be system in the game, that is not showing up early, not who grabs the cards first... I have seen level thing used plenty of times when I was coaching.

It sucked that the guy legendary out did get his class and no gear for other classes.
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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #11

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Kaledor wrote: It sucked that the guy legendary out did get his class and no gear for other classes.


I don't think the tokens you have or don't have though should have any bearing though either on who should get to play a class. Legendary bow player wants to use his bow as much as the red bow player wants to use his. That one choose to spend money on a bow and the other did not doesn't matter imo.
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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 2 weeks 3 days ago #12

Fuel to the fire : I went from never played to 4th level in a day at GenCon.

Are we getting updated classes for 2020?

And ... converting most class builds to something similar on the fly seems doable (maybe not true at higher level). Is the same true for rogues?

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Last edit: by Lequinian.
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