TOPIC: Archer's Buckler AC Bonus

I know there was a recent discussion but I can't find it, don't see anything in TokenDB, nor in the DM guide. When you equip an Archer's Buckler does the AC bonus only apply to your ranged AC bonus? In other words, when using a 2H ranged weapon, normally your 1H melee shield only gives an AC bonus when in melee attack mode, so does the Archer's Buckler work the same way, but opposite?

Logically I think it should only boost your AC in ranged attack mode but I'm pretty sure historically it wasn't done that way.

I'm pretty sure this is how the apps and character builders handle it.

Is the question if one can equip an archers buckler in melee and gain the AC bonus? If that is the question, I think the answer is no.

Since an archer's buckler "may not be used with any melee weapon nor with a one-handed ranged weapon", its AC bonus is only applicable when you are actively wielding a two-handed ranged weapon. When you're fighting in melee, you cannot wield an archer's buckler and therefore cannot gain the AC bonus from an archer's buckler.

If coaches and/or the various stat-generators are not calculating this correctly, please let me know.

Kirk Bauer wrote: does the AC bonus only apply to your ranged AC bonus?

It depends on what you mean by "ranged AC bonus".
Warning, hair-splitting ahead!
The use of the word "bonus" is what's triggering my nit-picking. The AC applies to your Missile AC, not your "AC bonus if monster attacks with a missile".

Does that make it clear? If not, how can I improve the explanation?

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Druegar wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: does the AC bonus only apply to your ranged AC bonus?

It depends on what you mean by "ranged AC bonus".
Warning, hair-splitting ahead!
The use of the word "bonus" is what's triggering nit-picking. The AC applies to your Missile AC, not your "AC bonus if monster attacks with a missile".

Does that make it clear? If not, how can I improve the explanation?

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But seriously yes the distinction is clear.

Yes, that is clear, and it makes sense, thank you.

I think in the past character generators were adding the Archer's Buckler to the total AC for both melee and ranged, but I could have a bad memory. Now it seems to work as described here. Thank you!

I understand that the token works as has been described.

Something I've never understood is "why?"

Is it seen as overpowered to allow using this Buckler with a 1H ranged weapon instead of a better Shield? To me that makes no sense, as generally the 2H ranged weapons are better than the 1H ones (excluding the recent Hammers), and the Shields are generally better than Buckler at same rarity. I feel like there's something I'm missing.

Fiddy wrote: I understand that the token works as has been described.

Something I've never understood is "why?"

Is it seen as overpowered to allow using this Buckler with a 1H ranged weapon instead of a better Shield? To me that makes no sense, as generally the 2H ranged weapons are better than the 1H ones (excluding the recent Hammers), and the Shields are generally better than Buckler at same rarity. I feel like there's something I'm missing.

It’s because the archers buckler isn’t slotted into the ranged offhand.

If the rule weren’t as it was you could use both a regular shield and the buckler in ranged.

And if you could use them both in ranged, why couldn’t use you them both in melee?

Matthew Hayward wrote: It’s because the archers buckler isn’t slotted into the ranged offhand.

Except... That is how the character builders present it, isn't it? I can only check the web and Android ones at the moment, but they have you put it in the missile off-hand slot.

Matthew Hayward wrote: If the rule weren’t as it was you could use both a regular shield and the buckler in ranged.

Except from the above, we're already putting the Buckler in the off-hand slot, so how would you also have a Shield in that slot?

Matthew Hayward wrote: And if you could use them both in ranged, why couldn’t use you them both in melee?

Because from above, the Buckler goes in the off-hand slot already. Though my follow-up question after resolving Ranged was going to be asking why the Buckler shouldn't be used with 1H melee weapons.


I just think (at least in my head) it would be simpler if the Buckler was treated as "Occupies off-hand slot but doesn't prevent using 2H weapons" / "Occupies off-hand slot but uses no hands" (or "Occupies off-hand slot but doesn't prevent using 2H missile weapons" if we need to keep it limited to ranged).


Given that the character builders have already put in logic to handle it the current way, I don't know whether changing the logic is worth it. Though maybe the change would simplify some of their code?

@Fiddy - I think the idea is that the buckler works something like this:



It isn’t that you can’t “wear” it in melee; it just doesn’t do you any good, except maybe from attacks coming from your left.

And that’s why bucklers don’t stack with other shields. They protect from attacks coming from perpendicular directions.

Not saying that’s why the rules are the way they are. It’s just why they seem perfectly reasonable to me.

That’s what the current rules seem to be trying to convey. Your suggested rule update may not give the same flavor but it certainly is simpler and seems to accomplish the same effect.

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: It’s because the archers buckler isn’t slotted into the ranged offhand.

Except... That is how the character builders present it, isn't it? I can only check the web and Android ones at the moment, but they have you put it in the missile off-hand slot.

Matthew Hayward wrote: If the rule weren’t as it was you could use both a regular shield and the buckler in ranged.

Except from the above, we're already putting the Buckler in the off-hand slot, so how would you also have a Shield in that slot?

Matthew Hayward wrote: And if you could use them both in ranged, why couldn’t use you them both in melee?

Because from above, the Buckler goes in the off-hand slot already. Though my follow-up question after resolving Ranged was going to be asking why the Buckler shouldn't be used with 1H melee weapons.


I just think (at least in my head) it would be simpler if the Buckler was treated as "Occupies off-hand slot but doesn't prevent using 2H weapons" / "Occupies off-hand slot but uses no hands" (or "Occupies off-hand slot but doesn't prevent using 2H missile weapons" if we need to keep it limited to ranged).


Given that the character builders have already put in logic to handle it the current way, I don't know whether changing the logic is worth it. Though maybe the change would simplify some of their code?

I think this is just different interpretations of the same thing.

You've never been able to equip the buckler in any situation other than at ranged and with a two handed ranged weapon.

So, one way to think of this is to say: "Bucklers go in the ranged offhand, and have a special rule exemption allowing you ranged offhand to equip two things at once."

I think of it as: "Bucklers are slotless, and may only be equipped when the ranged offhand is holding a ranged weapon."

The token has to have some kind of slot classification in TDb - it looks like 'Offhand' was chosen instead of 'Slotless.'

In fact, rules as written, bucklers can _never_ be equipped as it requires the mutually incompatible requirements of:
1. A two handed ranged weapon equipped.
2. A different item (the buckler) is equipped in the ranged offhand slot.
This is not possible under the rules, and the TDb entry for bucklers doesn't say the buckler excludes you from those rules.

The TDb text should probably be clarified to say something like:

"When used with a two handed ranged weapon, grants the ability to equip two items in the ranged offhand slot and +1 AC. May only be used with two handed ranged weapons (may never be used with 1 handed ranged weapons or melee weapons)."