TOPIC: Try discussing here....

I get tired of people arguing against vaccination using the "my body, my choice" argument. When it comes to abortion, it isn't risking the health of the people around you, while refusing to get vaccinated means you could be risking the health of friends, family, and co-workers while also creating an undue burden on hospitals.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Rob F wrote: If this virus would have hit 20 years ago before the advent of social media everyone would have had their shots by now.

#listentoyourdoctorandnotonlinebullshit

Unfortunately this does not hold true.

If you look at the Spanish flu outbreak of the 1900s (around 100 years ago) there's tons of anti-vaccine protests listed in papers in the states. Sad to say but anti-vaccine sentiments have been around for at least 100 years.

Maybe they've been around, but I doubt they were as prolific as they are today. Every kid in my state gets multiple vaccines pumped into them prior to and during school ages. No one says anything about it.

balthasar wrote: I get tired of people arguing against vaccination using the "my body, my choice" argument. When it comes to abortion, it isn't risking the health of the people around you, while refusing to get vaccinated means you could be risking the health of friends, family, and co-workers while also creating an undue burden on hospitals.

Careful, that's a can a whole other can of worms we don't want to open.

Personally I hope Brad is allowed to continue to speak. On principle we should not seek to silence people even if we sincerely disagree with them. Besides which, once we stop talking to "the other side" whats left for us to do. I also agree with him in the sense that our leadership has handled this whole thing horribly. There's lots of blame to go around and they've done lots lot things that would reduce trust in any rational person.

That said I agree with Tim Pool, Covid needs to be taken seriously and in general the vaccine works. Do your diligence and consult your doctor or trusted healthcare provider. If you don't trust your doctor, you owe it to yourself to do the work to get a doctor you do trust. Most voices on the internet are not qualified to give medical advice.

Thank you, Wade/Arcanist/Mike/Kaledor. Brian and KurtReznor, I wish you nothing but the best.

Everything I said came from sources. It may contradict the sources you're seeing, so one or the other is probably wrong. Maybe it's mine. If so, I'm really sorry. We work remotely so my employer isn't mandating vaccines but is implementing a surcharge. It's going to cost me almost 1% of my income next year to not get vaccinated. This choice is costing me real money regardless, and potentially my life. It's a life-and-death decision for me and everyone else, so if I'm wrong and it kills me then no one will regret my position more than I. And I like all of you (some more than others ) so I'm absolutely not trying to trick anyone into joining me in the grave.

My memory isn't what it used to be, but there are things I remember. When I was in high school in the 70s, our teachers were telling us how pollution was going to cause a new ice age by 2000. The solution was centralizing more control in the government. Then we had global warming that was going to melt the ice caps, same solution. Then when the planet didn't warm a bit over the last 15 years it changed to "climate change." Same prescription. Every year or two for the last few decades there was a new disease (swine flu, bird flue, hunta, AIDS) that was going to kill us all. Instead they all burned out. I've heard "wolf" cried so often I've lost count, and the answer has always been to give the government total control over every aspect of our lives. We didn't give it to them, and the crises passed. And here we are again, but this time they seem to have hit on something that'll stick. It's interesting how the lockdowns drove so many businesses into bankruptcy, but some big campaign donors (Amazon, Walmart, big pharma, etc) made record profits. I don't know how close it came to destroying TD, but Jeff was clever enough to weather the storm, for which we're all grateful. Many businesses weren't so lucky.

So I can't get spun up over every alleged crisis the power-grabbers come up with. I've heard too many. Many of today's problems (thousands of canceled flights, supply chain disruptions, dwindling hospital capacity) are IMO caused or exacerbated by vaccine mandates or threats thereof that are driving some people out of the workforce. It's funny how some roving "weather" seems to only knock out one airline at a time, and usually after they've announced some mandate for their crews. "No jab, no job" is the blackmail I was talking about earlier. These folks went from "essential workers" to "object lessons" for non-compliance, and we're all suffering for it.

And I'm really glad that no one here that got the jab had something bad happen to them. I don't want to be right at the expense of the suffering of anyone else.

So that's that. I hope to see you all again. It can't come too soon. We can kill some monsters and talk about things other than diseases, assuming we all survive until then.

On a side note: have you seen Adam Ruins Everything? Great show. He leans left but I've loved every episode he's done. (I like people regardless of their politics, so long as they aren't hateful.) I got hooked from his second episode called "Adam Ruins Security." Highly recommended.

balthasar wrote: I get tired of people arguing against vaccination using the "my body, my choice" argument. When it comes to abortion, it isn't risking the health of the people around you...

Pro-life proponents disagree. They think the unborn are "people" whose lives are definitely affected by the decision to abort. That's the root of the debate, and that's why it will probably never be resolved. Like PIcc said, let's leave that one be.

One last point. The current "vaccines" aren't actually vaccines by the CDC definition a couple of years ago. These are the first mRNA "vaccines" ever used on people ever, so comparing them to polio/measles etc vaccines is comparing apples to sardines.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I don't know how close it came to destroying TD, but Jeff was clever enough to weather the storm, for which we're all grateful.

I think we can all agree to this. TD has been a real port in a storm these last two years.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Thank you, Wade/Arcanist/Mike/Kaledor. Brian and KurtReznor, I wish you nothing but the best.

Everything I said came from sources. It may contradict the sources you're seeing, so one or the other is probably wrong. Maybe it's mine. If so, I'm really sorry. We work remotely so my employer isn't mandating vaccines but is implementing a surcharge. It's going to cost me almost 1% of my income next year to not get vaccinated. This choice is costing me real money regardless, and potentially my life. It's a life-and-death decision for me and everyone else, so if I'm wrong and it kills me then no one will regret my position more than I. And I like all of you (some more than others ) so I'm absolutely not trying to trick anyone into joining me in the grave.

My memory isn't what it used to be, but there are things I remember. When I was in high school in the 70s, our teachers were telling us how pollution was going to cause a new ice age by 2000. The solution was centralizing more control in the government. Then we had global warming that was going to melt the ice caps, same solution. Then when the planet didn't warm a bit over the last 15 years it changed to "climate change." Same prescription. Every year or two for the last few decades there was a new disease (swine flu, bird flue, hunta, AIDS) that was going to kill us all. Instead they all burned out. I've heard "wolf" cried so often I've lost count, and the answer has always been to give the government total control over every aspect of our lives. We didn't give it to them, and the crises passed. And here we are again, but this time they seem to have hit on something that'll stick. It's interesting how the lockdowns drove so many businesses into bankruptcy, but some big campaign donors (Amazon, Walmart, big pharma, etc) made record profits. I don't know how close it came to destroying TD, but Jeff was clever enough to weather the storm, for which we're all grateful. Many businesses weren't so lucky.

So I can't get spun up over every alleged crisis the power-grabbers come up with. I've heard too many. Many of today's problems (thousands of canceled flights, supply chain disruptions, dwindling hospital capacity) are IMO caused or exacerbated by vaccine mandates or threats thereof that are driving some people out of the workforce. It's funny how some roving "weather" seems to only knock out one airline at a time, and usually after they've announced some mandate for their crews. "No jab, no job" is the blackmail I was talking about earlier. These folks went from "essential workers" to "object lessons" for non-compliance, and we're all suffering for it.

And I'm really glad that no one here that got the jab had something bad happen to them. I don't want to be right at the expense of the suffering of anyone else.

So that's that. I hope to see you all again. It can't come too soon. We can kill some monsters and talk about things other than diseases, assuming we all survive until then.

On a side note: have you seen Adam Ruins Everything? Great show. He leans left but I've loved every episode he's done. (I like people regardless of their politics, so long as they aren't hateful.) I got hooked from his second episode called "Adam Ruins Security." Highly recommended.

Haven't seen Adam, but I have heard very good things about the show.

The issue here is the idea that there is "another side" of this argument.

There is one side arguing with science, sources, and evidence. Every bit of evidence says get the shot and that it will help us.

There is another side that is constantly throwing around inflammatory rhetoric, and is straight up anti-science. They post misinformation constantly that people like Brad lap up like crazy because it reinforces their world view. When others point out how that information has been misrepresented or is simply false (like everyone has done in this thread) Brad simply goes back to "Well I posted sources, it's your decision to believe them or not."

He has been led astray in the most heinous and insidious way. He's had is trust in actual scientific authorities destroyed through a constant feed of misinformation and inflammatory rhetoric. You can tell from the buzzwords and random right-wing dog whistles he repeats here. None of this is his actual thinking or the result of his own research or expertise. He's eaten up the propaganda. This whole situation is FRIGHTENING.

This whole situation is very akin to the paradox of tolerance.

You look outside and you see it's raining. One person in the room says it's raining outside. Another person tells you it's perfectly fine and sunny, and starts to tell others that it's fine and sunny, and not to listen to those doom and gloom people. There's not two sides to the story. One person is reporting fact, and the other is simply wrong. We have this weird idea lately like we have to hear both of these people out. No we don't.


Should Brad and the others spreading misinformation be banned? Probably not. Should we tell him and the others they should stop posting misinformation and poor arguments? Probably.

jpotter wrote: The issue here is the idea that there is "another side" of this argument.

There is one side arguing with science, sources, and evidence. Every bit of evidence says get the shot and that it will help us.

There is another side that is constantly throwing around inflammatory rhetoric, and is straight up anti-science. They post misinformation constantly that people like Brad lap up like crazy because it reinforces their world view. When others point out how that information has been misrepresented or is simply false (like everyone has done in this thread) Brad simply goes back to "Well I posted sources, it's your decision to believe them or not."

He has been led astray in the most heinous and insidious way. He's had is trust in actual scientific authorities destroyed through a constant feed of misinformation and inflammatory rhetoric. You can tell from the buzzwords and random right-wing dog whistles he repeats here. None of this is his actual thinking or the result of his own research or expertise. He's eaten up the propaganda. This whole situation is FRIGHTENING.

This whole situation is very akin to the paradox of tolerance.

You look outside and you see it's raining. One person in the room says it's raining outside. Another person tells you it's perfectly fine and sunny, and starts to tell others that it's fine and sunny, and not to listen to those doom and gloom people. There's not two sides to the story. One person is reporting fact, and the other is simply wrong. We have this weird idea lately like we have to hear both of these people out. No we don't.


Should Brad and the others spreading misinformation be banned? Probably not. Should we tell him and the others they should stop posting misinformation and poor arguments? Probably.

"Right wing dog whistles" is pretty inflammatory.

Mike Steele wrote: "Right wing dog whistles" is pretty inflammatory.

While we are at it, I was referring to your use of the term "cancel culture" as well.

It isn't hurting the health of people around you, no matter which side you take, Brad. If a woman has an abortion, and she is standing next to you, can her choice have a negative impact on you? If a person chooses to not get vaccinated and they are standing next to you, is there an increased chance of a negative impact to you? I stand by what I said.

I agree with Brad (at least I think this is what he was saying) that the COVID policies in the country seem driven as much or more by politics than by science. Social Distancing was absolutely necessary to the point of arresting people that weren't doing so and closing businesses that weren't complying - until a summer of BLM and Antifa riots when suddenly it wasn't important at all. Mask mandates were absolutely essential (even though one of Biden's own COVID experts admitted that a non-N95 mask does little to stop viruses) - except that the officials putting the mask mandates in place were caught over and over ignoring those mandates. Getting the vaccine is so important that tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of doctors, nurses, police, firefighters and people of all walks of life are getting fired for not doing so - but hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants are allowed/encouraged to come across an open border and are being transported throughout the country without any COVID tests or vaccine. Small children are being required to wear masks all day in school (which in itself is harmful to their health due to carbon dioxide build-up) and get vaccinated even though their risk from COVID is extremely small.