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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #277

Brad Mortensen wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote: I honestly don’t know how to respond to a wall of misinformation. I guess I’ll try doing it with a picture. Is the bottom line in each graph perfectly flat at zero? No. But it’s a heck of a lot lower than the top line. I will never understand how people can talk themselves into the idea that being on the top line is somehow better, or safer.


Lel's start with one piece of "misinformation."

www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

So, as I said, at least some of the "unvaccinated" cases and deaths are people who got the shot 14 or fewer days prior. How many? We don't know.


The vaccine isn’t maximally effective until 10-14 days after the first (J&J) or second shot (Pfizer/Moderna). That shouldn’t be surprising—the immune system takes some time to mount an effective response to the vaccine. Why would you expect it to provide instant, full protection? The flu shot also takes about two weeks to kick in. Many medicines don’t provide an instant, complete benefit. (For example, antibiotics often take 2-3 days to start working, and antidepressants take 4-6 weeks to build up in the body and take effect.) This is a very strange criticism.


I don't. I'm saying that there should be three lines: no vax, partial vax, and fully vaxed. Lumping the first two together is misleading and can mask vaccine injuries by labeling them as a "COVID epidemic of the unvaxxed."

To be clear, I'm not saying I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I'm saying I have questions, and "shut up and get jabbed" (which no one here has actually said) doesn't answer them.


Good news! Virginia breaks down the data the way you want.

And what does the Virginia data show? Being partially vaccinated offers some protection against Covid. Being fully vaccinated offers more protection. There is no reason to believe reporting the data the way the CDC does “masks vaccine injuries.” (Sure, it would be nice if the CDC broke it down, but they’ve decided not to for whatever reason.)

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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #278

Let's go through this a false point at a time.

Brad Mortensen wrote:
I didn't say it doesn't help. I said there have been no long-term studies. But it doesn't seem to be as safe as advertised (some make it sound riskless) and since it's only 65% effective for two to six months, it's not so effective either.


This is incorrect. While it's not 100% effective at preventing infection, you're much less likely to get it, less likely to be hospitalized if you do get it, and less likely to die if you're hospitalized. Not by small margins either, in Washington State unvaxxed individuals are 5 times more likely to catch Covid and 18 times more likely to be hospitalized than others in the same age group. www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf

Brad Mortensen wrote: As the population gets the shot, you're going to be more likely to catch it from a fellow vaxxed person.


That is how numbers work, yes. However as the percentage of the population that are vaccinated go up everyone is less likely to get it. You're less likely to get Covid from a vaccinated individual who's infected than you are from an unvaccinated individual. Waiting on more studies for good numbers, but it's looking like roughly 30% less likely.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I honestly try to be logical about things, but when our leaders resort to blackmail I wonder why they can't just be honest and point to facts and data?


Who is being blackmailed, and who is being dishonest?

Brad Mortensen wrote: And why have 40k nurses and doctors chosen unemployment over taking the vaccine? One assumes they put some thought into their decision.


There are roughly 5,000,000 nurses and 118,000 doctors in the US. Why do you consider the opinion of .7% of them to be more valid than the opinion of 99.3% of them?

Brad Mortensen wrote: But you can't get it in the US. The only ones we can get are still the experimental shots under EUA which are NOT fully approved, despite what most people assume..


You can absolutely get Pfizer in the US. I did. If that was your reason for not getting it you'll be glad to know that you can get the fully approved shot. I look forward to hearing about your vaccination.

Brad Mortensen wrote: And since my doctors have already told me to be careful with my ticker, I don't want to risk taking shots that could make my already-above-average chance of a heart attack become 71-times more likely. Will studies prove or disprove that number? Who can say. Let's find out. I'll wait.


If you want hard numbers, let's look at Israel and find out. By May 31st, 2021 5,100,000 Israelis had been fully vaccinated. 142 people got myocarditis following their shot. Studies have shown that the risk is slightly higher after getting vaccinated, especially in young men, but still very low. Most of those cases were extremely mild as well, there was 1 death. Incidentally, in the US the rate of myocarditis for those with Covid bad enough to require inpatient care was 16x higher than the rate of it with people that hadn't had Covid, meaning your chances of myocarditis if unvaccinated are way higher than your chances if you are vaccinated.

Brad Mortensen wrote: We also know they changed the definition of "vaccine" and "unvaccinated." It doesn't mean "never vaxxed." When they say "vaccinated" they mean "got the shot two or more weeks ago." Everyone else is considered "unvaxxed."


This isn't true. Vaccinated has always meant fully vaccinated. If you are vaccinated for polio, you've had 4 shots.

Brad Mortensen wrote: The test detects all corona viruses, including common cold and flu, which is why the number of common flu cases went to almost zero last year; they all got called "COVID" instead.


Where are you getting your information? This isn't true at all. Covid-19 tests check for Covid 19. The flu isn't even a coronavirus. The reason flu cases were so much lower last year is because a lot of people wore masks and social distanced, which is effective to prevent the spread of pretty much any pathogen spread through droplets in the air.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Even noted opposite-of-a-right-wing-extremist Bill Maher (not a doctor) has said the pandemic is over, and it's time to get back to normal.


If you're getting your health advice from hack comedians you have big problems. Otherwise I fail to see how that's relevant.

Brad Mortensen wrote: So I don't understand this antipathy against people who think their risk from the shot is greater than the disease, or why the assumption that the vaxxed need to be protected from the unvaxxed.


There's a lot of reasons for this. You're much more likely to spread Covid if you're unvaccinated than vaccinated. If you're unvaccinated you're much more likely to be hospitalized, and hospitals have been stretched to their limits caring for unvaccinated individuals. That means that people who get sick or injured in other ways either can't get care or don't get as good of a care, because everything is so strained right now. It's because mutation is more likely to happen in unvaccinated individuals, making Covid a greater threat to all of us than it has to be. It's because we could have, and should have, been done with this a long time ago but tons of people are still getting sick and dying because a huge chunk of the country won't get the vaccine and won't wear masks.

I am not saying that you're a bad person for any of this. I don't know you, and based on my experiences with the TD community as a whole everyone seems to be amazing. I don't think that you're malicious in any way, which is required to be a bad person. But you and everyone else who chooses not to get vaccinated based on wildly incorrect data objectively make every one of us less safe. You're not a bad person, but you are making a bad decision that has negative impacts on everyone.

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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #279

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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #280

Not at anyone in particular, just final thoughts.

"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetuated in the name of the noblest causes." -- Thomas Paine

It is bemusing to see the left go from "my body by choice" to "show us your papers." I guess that old proverb is true: "choose your enemies carefully for you will become like them." So it's not surprising to see them go full-on fascist. (I'm talking about the politicians, not the people who believe them.)

If they're telling the truth, then maybe they're justified in ignoring our laws and Constitution. Early in the pandemic it made sense for the executive branch to usurp the legislative. But it's hard to make the case that we're still in an "emergency" after a year and a half, and that governors, mayors, and presidents can still write their own laws.

And one last question: if COVID is really still a problem, then why is the administration spreading 160k illegal aliens from all over the world coming through the southern border, without requiring vaccines or even a COVID test? It's hard for me to feel guilty about declining the vaccine when they're engineering their own superspreader - nypost.com/2021/10/13/around-160000-illegal-immigrants-released-into-the-us-since-march-report/

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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #281

Brad Mortensen wrote:

balthasar wrote: The point about myocarditis is followed by the speaker saying they can't prove that there is a higher risk without an actual study, so I am not sure why that is your focus in this video. We get it, you don't think the vaccine helps, and nothing is going to change your mind. What we do know is that vast majority of people being hospitalized, and dying, are unvaccinated people.


I didn't say it doesn't help. I said there have been no long-term studies. But it doesn't seem to be as safe as advertised (some make it sound riskless) and since it's only 65% effective for two to six months, it's not so effective either. Even vaxxed can get COVID, and even vaxxed can spread it. So I don't understand this antipathy against people who think their risk from the shot is greater than the disease, or why the assumption that the vaxxed need to be protected from the unvaxxed. As the population gets the shot, you're going to be more likely to catch it from a fellow vaxxed person. I honestly try to be logical about things, but when our leaders resort to blackmail I wonder why they can't just be honest and point to facts and data?. And why have 40k nurses and doctors chosen unemployment over taking the vaccine? One assumes they put some thought into their decision.

And before you say that the vaccines have been fully approved, they haven't. There is one that has been approved www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine

But you can't get it in the US. The only ones we can get are still the experimental shots under EUA which are NOT fully approved, despite what most people assume..

And since my doctors have already told me to be careful with my ticker, I don't want to risk taking shots that could make my already-above-average chance of a heart attack become 71-times more likely. Will studies prove or disprove that number? Who can say. Let's find out. I'll wait.

We also know they changed the definition of "vaccine" and "unvaccinated." It doesn't mean "never vaxxed." When they say "vaccinated" they mean "got the shot two or more weeks ago." Everyone else is considered "unvaxxed." And there is no test for COVID-19 specifically. The test detects all corona viruses, including common cold and flu, which is why the number of common flu cases went to almost zero last year; they all got called "COVID" instead. How many of the hospitalized "COVID cases" are actually bad reactions to the vaccine and being labeled as "unvaxxed COVID cases?" The waters are murky at best, and the people in charge seem to be making things murkier by stopping OSHA from tracking vaccine injuries. Seems like they're just trying to keep the panic alive.

Maybe I'd be more inclined to believe the blue-state lockdown/mandate politicians if they actually believed what they say, but they obviously don't. They ignore their own mandates and makes excuses when caught. Even BIden leaves off his mask walking through restaurants, coughing into his right hand before shaking hands with unsuspecting people.

Even noted opposite-of-a-right-wing-extremist Bill Maher (not a doctor) has said the pandemic is over, and it's time to get back to normal.

I honestly wish good health and happiness to all my friends, and anyone else reading this, and I hope all of our decisions re: vaccines work out


Admins, please ban Brad M. His continued insistence on spreading misinformation regardless of the information presented has proven that he is only interested in harming others (I hope this is not intentional on his part, but does not change the outcome).
The misinformation is a common tactic using cleverly disguised skepticism, leading people away from genuine reliable information and into the territory of conspiracy theory where they can be manipulated into believing nonsense.
Obviously, I can't be certain how far Brad has fallen into this trap, but many on these forums have tried to rescue him and he has repeatedly rebuffed them with more misinformation, insisting that their sources can't be trusted (and implying that he/his sources CAN be trusted). I do not want to see others in this community lured into believing misinformation.
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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #282

kurtreznor wrote:
Admins, please ban Brad M. His continued insistence on spreading misinformation regardless of the information presented has proven that he is only interested in harming others (I hope this is not intentional on his part, but does not change the outcome).
The misinformation is a common tactic using cleverly disguised skepticism, leading people away from genuine reliable information and into the territory of conspiracy theory where they can be manipulated into believing nonsense.
Obviously, I can't be certain how far Brad has fallen into this trap, but many on these forums have tried to rescue him and he has repeatedly rebuffed them with more misinformation, insisting that their sources can't be trusted (and implying that he/his sources CAN be trusted). I do not want to see others in this community lured into believing misinformation.


I sincerely hope this doesn't happen.

Brad does have a LOT of misinformation, but because of his sharing it, many others have stepped up with good information.

While we may not change Brad's mind, Maybe we can change someone else's.
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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #283

Josh M. wrote: Let's go through this a false point at a time.
But you and everyone else who chooses not to get vaccinated based on wildly incorrect data objectively make every one of us less safe. You're not a bad person, but you are making a bad decision that has negative impacts on everyone.


It's a choice to either get vaccinated or not. Friends of mine haven't and won't get vaccinated. I just smile and tell them in life you have to make choices and not all choices are the correct ones, today you're not making the correct choice. We are still friends and still game together, he is just making a bad choice for himself. I provided the following link for him to read and hope he gets it!

www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid19-vaccine-hesitancy-12-things-you-need-to-know
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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #284

Rob F wrote: If this virus would have hit 20 years ago before the advent of social media everyone would have had their shots by now.

#listentoyourdoctorandnotonlinebullshit


Unfortunately this does not hold true.

If you look at the Spanish flu outbreak of the 1900s (around 100 years ago) there's tons of anti-vaccine protests listed in papers in the states. Sad to say but anti-vaccine sentiments have been around for at least 100 years.

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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #285

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:
Admins, please ban Brad M. His continued insistence on spreading misinformation regardless of the information presented has proven that he is only interested in harming others (I hope this is not intentional on his part, but does not change the outcome).
The misinformation is a common tactic using cleverly disguised skepticism, leading people away from genuine reliable information and into the territory of conspiracy theory where they can be manipulated into believing nonsense.
Obviously, I can't be certain how far Brad has fallen into this trap, but many on these forums have tried to rescue him and he has repeatedly rebuffed them with more misinformation, insisting that their sources can't be trusted (and implying that he/his sources CAN be trusted). I do not want to see others in this community lured into believing misinformation.


I sincerely hope this doesn't happen.

Brad does have a LOT of misinformation, but because of his sharing it, many others have stepped up with good information.

While we may not change Brad's mind, Maybe we can change someone else's.


I certainly support Brad's right to post. I think cancel culture causes us all to lose out by restricting things to just one viewpoint.

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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #286

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Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:
Admins, please ban Brad M. His continued insistence on spreading misinformation regardless of the information presented has proven that he is only interested in harming others (I hope this is not intentional on his part, but does not change the outcome).
The misinformation is a common tactic using cleverly disguised skepticism, leading people away from genuine reliable information and into the territory of conspiracy theory where they can be manipulated into believing nonsense.
Obviously, I can't be certain how far Brad has fallen into this trap, but many on these forums have tried to rescue him and he has repeatedly rebuffed them with more misinformation, insisting that their sources can't be trusted (and implying that he/his sources CAN be trusted). I do not want to see others in this community lured into believing misinformation.


I sincerely hope this doesn't happen.

Brad does have a LOT of misinformation, but because of his sharing it, many others have stepped up with good information.

While we may not change Brad's mind, Maybe we can change someone else's.


I certainly support Brad's right to post. I think cancel culture causes us all to lose out by restricting things to just one viewpoint.


There is a difference between posting opinions and deliberately spreading misinformation.
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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #287

bpsymington wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I certainly support Brad's right to post. I think cancel culture causes us all to lose out by restricting things to just one viewpoint.


There is a difference between posting opinions and deliberately spreading misinformation.


Deliberately requires intent. I wouldn't be so sure of that with Brad. He likely genuinely believes his information to be correct.

Also, Cancel culture? That seems like a buzzword designed to inflame.....
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Try discussing here.... 9 months 6 days ago #288

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

bpsymington wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I certainly support Brad's right to post. I think cancel culture causes us all to lose out by restricting things to just one viewpoint.


There is a difference between posting opinions and deliberately spreading misinformation.


Deliberately requires intent. I wouldn't be so sure of that with Brad. He likely genuinely believes his information to be correct.

Also, Cancel culture? That seems like a buzzword designed to inflame.....


Never assign to malice what can be adequately explained through ignorance.

I don't think anything Brad is posting is coming from malicious intent. I also agree with Wade that I think Brad feels the information he is making decisions based on is correct.

I do not agree with his assessment but that does not mean he's trying to trick me with his words

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