TOPIC: Try discussing here....

If the medical community would tell the unvaccinated to stay at home instead of taking up space at hospitals to the detriment of others then there is no harm.

edwin wrote: If the medical community would tell the unvaccinated to stay at home instead of taking up space at hospitals to the detriment of others then there is no harm.

Are we going to tell smokers that they can't get cancer treatment? Are we going to tell alcoholics that they can't get dialysis?

Steve wrote: "People shouldn't be able to harm others.

By not getting the vaccine, people are harming others and society as a whole."

I have a question about this statement. It is my understanding that the people that are being harmed are those that have chosen not to get the vaccine. According to the media and the reports, the majority of the people that are in the hospital or that have died are non-vax people.

The virus is caught and spread by both vaccinated and non-vaccinated people. My wife has been vaccinated and still caught the virus. We believe from another vaccinated person. To imply that the virus is only spread by non vaccinated people is a false premise. The true statement should be that people should realize that they are putting themselves at a greater risk of dying and should realize that they should get vaccinated.

The vaccine does not prevent catching the virus. The main benefit is it reduces your risk of hospitalization or death.

Is it wise and better for someone to get the vaccine? YES However it should not be mandated that they do so.

At no point did I say that only the non-vaccinated get sick or pass the disease, just to clarify.

People being unvaccinated means that spread and chance of spread are greater. They are increasing the chance of mutations that eventually go well past what our vaccines can keep up with. There are also people who genuinely can't get the vaccine (kids are the biggest group here). By not getting vaccinated you are also increasing the chance that you get greatly ill, use up resources in our hospitals (many of which are being REALLY taxed currently by these selfish people), and generally become a drain on society.

It is not fallacious to say these people are harming us and society. They absolutely are. The spread of misinformation and the ridiculous arguments of people grousing about their civil liberties and religious freedoms are also simply missing the point. You're hurting us. You're not informed. Get the @#$%ing vaccine and stop being a selfish piece of crap.

Steve wrote:

edwin wrote: If the medical community would tell the unvaccinated to stay at home instead of taking up space at hospitals to the detriment of others then there is no harm.

Are we going to tell smokers that they can't get cancer treatment? Are we going to tell alcoholics that they can't get dialysis?

No, but we tell them they can't get transplants. Because if you're not going to invest in keeping yourself healthy, we're not going to give you every single chance in the world.

I'd also point out those things aren't contagious, and we don't have a vaccine for them. We already have told smokers to get lost with their second hand smoke, and there's a reason public intoxication is illegal most places.

jpotter wrote:

Steve wrote:

edwin wrote: If the medical community would tell the unvaccinated to stay at home instead of taking up space at hospitals to the detriment of others then there is no harm.

Are we going to tell smokers that they can't get cancer treatment? Are we going to tell alcoholics that they can't get dialysis?

No, but we tell them they can't get transplants. Because if you're not going to invest in keeping yourself healthy, we're not going to give you every single chance in the world.

I'd also point out those things aren't contagious, and we don't have a vaccine for them. We already have told smokers to get lost with their second hand smoke, and there's a reason public intoxication is illegal most places.

Pretty much this. Scarce medical resources are withheld from people that abuse themselves, and we absolutely reduce the harm they can cause others. It's why you can't smoke around non smokers in public places, because that's a conscious decision that harms others. It's a great example, Steve, thanks for bringing it up.

Vaccines reduce your chance of getting it by 66%. That's not perfect, sure, you can still get it, but that's a major reduction in your chances of spreading it further, potentially killing people, and of helping it mutate into even worse forms. I don't think that people who refuse vaccination are bad people, but their awful choice from fear or misinformation is causing tremendous harm. If people would just get vaccinated, or failing that wear a mask correctly we'd be almost done with this. Instead people are still doing, kettle are still getting long term health effects, and we are still burning through tons and tons of resources.

Because of non-vaccinated covid cases being taken into hospital, all others are being turn away including gun shot victims, car accident victims, etc. in the regional area where I am at.

100% across the board are being turned away.

edwin wrote: Because of non-vaccinated covid cases being taken into hospital, all others are being turn away including gun shot victims, car accident victims, etc. in the regional area where I am at.

100% across the board are being turned away.

This was why we closed stuff down last year, to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed and leaving them unable to help the normal number of patients. We are seeing a ton more cases now than we saw last year, but everything is open, sporting events are at full capacity and people are fighting to keep from wearing masks or getting vaccinated. I really hope this winter doesn't end up with more cases than last year because if it does, it is going to be ugly.

Recent article in LA Times - In CA, in urban areas with high vax rates, hospitalizations are down, or at least holding steady. Rural areas in CA to the north and to the east (low tax rates) are seeing sharp increases in hospitalizations.

This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

balthasar wrote:

edwin wrote: Because of non-vaccinated covid cases being taken into hospital, all others are being turn away including gun shot victims, car accident victims, etc. in the regional area where I am at.

100% across the board are being turned away.

This was why we closed stuff down last year, to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed and leaving them unable to help the normal number of patients. We are seeing a ton more cases now than we saw last year, but everything is open, sporting events are at full capacity and people are fighting to keep from wearing masks or getting vaccinated. I really hope this winter doesn't end up with more cases than last year because if it does, it is going to be ugly.

The irony here being this is the same pattern we went through with the Spanish Flu: outbreak, prevention, return to 'normal' and then even more massive outbreak. People seem to love to not learn from history

NightGod wrote:

balthasar wrote:

edwin wrote: Because of non-vaccinated covid cases being taken into hospital, all others are being turn away including gun shot victims, car accident victims, etc. in the regional area where I am at.

100% across the board are being turned away.

This was why we closed stuff down last year, to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed and leaving them unable to help the normal number of patients. We are seeing a ton more cases now than we saw last year, but everything is open, sporting events are at full capacity and people are fighting to keep from wearing masks or getting vaccinated. I really hope this winter doesn't end up with more cases than last year because if it does, it is going to be ugly.

The irony here being this is the same pattern we went through with the Spanish Flu: outbreak, prevention, return to 'normal' and then even more massive outbreak. People seem to love to not learn from history

I doubt most people even have a basic understanding of the Spanish flu. Let’s face it history isn’t a focus in schools these days. Heck I learned more history on my own after school then I ever learned there. I graduated in the late 90s and I understand it’s just gotten worse since.

Sadly, a large portion of the population knows very little about history. While I consider myself as probably knowing more than average, there's still a lot even I don't know. But in this case I know that the supreme court has ruled many times over the past century that mandates made in the interest of public health and safety are considered constitutional. What's funny now is that in the past its often been liberals challenging that opinion in the interest of civil liberties and conservatives supporting it. Shoe is now on the other foot. History.

Science should probably be taught before history. You don’t have to know history if you trust the science, the history is just a bonus!