TOPIC: Frac! ! ! ! !

Well, I can try a different tactic. God thinks Fracing is BAD because he causes the earth to shake when you do it. Thats his way of being angry at you.

I use to believe as you did. I was just like you until I found the lord. Unfortunately there is no way for me to tell you, you just have to find the lord and see. Once you do your eyes will become open and you will see the truth. There is evil out there and you would be wise to heed my warning and avoid it.

Amen brother!

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Not to knock religion or anything but to illustrate how posts can become preachy and turn away from a factual debate and to an ooygooy hippy-yaya muddle of people's beliefs and opinions. I have no idea how the affordable care act ties into Fracing but it seems like it just got drawn in because its a political hot button.


I think its time for this now...

Then Hitler came riding in on the tarrasque!

Sorry valetutto but your argument devolves into feelings again and has no basis in fact.

My current beliefs have been tested in the arena of fact based outcome. If you can address them with facts that I can look at, challenge and test I will be happy to look at your points. What you have done is yet again attack the messenger rather than look at the problem.

The problem in this case is people believing that their political party is somehow better than another. That just because their intentions are good they are doing good things. This is demonstrably false yet people still argue for the feel good political side. I have not even started to look at the issues yet am being attacked because I have the audacity to say people are not looking at the whole picture or even a large part of it! I my not have the entire picture in view either but I know I have a far better view of it than most people.

At least I am willing to listen to other people's opinions and ideas to change that view. I also will reject views and opinions that have been demonstrated to be false. It takes a lot of proof for me to completely reject a particular view but once that point is reached there is no need to go back and look. It becomes tedious to argue with a person that 2+2 does not equal 3.

I am not a religious fanatic and as a matter of fact I despise them. I think that they are just as blind as those that support one party over another. NEITHER party is worth supporting when you look at individual liberty and the concepts that were enacted with this nation. Go read the federalist papers in their entirety then you can see just how far we have fallen.

I have been a voracious reader throughout my life and the last count of books that I had read numbered in excess of six thousand. That does not even include my course of study that I took to obtain my Economics Degree from OSU.

Now I will admit that about 3K+ of those books have been fantasy and science fiction because I like entertainment. The rest of them have been on History, Philosophy, Theology, Politics, Economic Theory, Physics, Math, Computer Science and more.

One thing that I am certain of is that the Main Stream Media is not your friend. I honestly believe that anyone thinking that they are is deep in delusional denial.

I broadened the fracking subject into a wider political issue. You can blame me.

The reason is not that I am looking for an argument in this forum. I just saw the propaganda level rising and I couldn't resist the desire to try to maybe get one person glamoured by liberal political fantasy to see reality. It is kind of scary to see how mentally inflexible people can be sometimes, ironically when they most think they are not, and how unwilling people can be to simply evaluate data - just the data, no emotions, no happy wishes, no guilt ridden self loathing because your parents gave you something good to grow on and not everyone everywhere has it that good, and arrive at a logical and defensible understanding of a situation and a rationally deduced solution to a problem.

It bodes poorly for our collective future, I am sorry to say.

Its interesting that someone can claim to have read it all and because they come to a different conclusion than another person, then that person must have not have read enough or at all or believe such-n-such.

This assumes that if everyone reads everything they will always come to the same conclusion which is simply false.

Apparently my argument has no basis in fact.
Ok, how about an argument from Authority?

I have a degree in geology with special studies in GIS. That's geographic information systems. I did a correlative analysis of earthquakes in texas and the location of fracing sites, specifically the sites they use to deposit their waste water. There was a 1 to 1 link proving the cause of the earthquake was man made and specifically a byproduct of fracing.

So I've done my homework to prove fracing can cause some "bad" stuff.
Point me to the research you've done that proves my findings wrong.
Don't just tell me I'm wrong, because who would believe that right?
Don't just tell me I didn't read enough because how can you really know?
Don't just tell me I won't listen because I'm still here.

Do it, "show me the money". Prove it with facts.

I don't care about political party.
I don't watch mainstream media.
I do listen to NPR and that is my own real news outlet.
I am exposed to local media but I don't believe anything I don't independantly verify.


Now I was certain the tarrasque or Hitler would have killed this tread... but I guess we're just REALLY bored and wanting Gencon to start already.

LOL. This is getting good but I think we should probably stop here.

Suffice is it to say I am not a geologist but the stature of my technical credentials (health sciences) exceeds yours by a wide margin. I am not an expert on earthquakes, so I honestly can't speculate whether you have something real or not. I can't even imagine a correlation between earthquakes and waste depositing in landfills or on the surface. That makes no sense. I was thinking you were trying to correlate deep well drilling or deep well injection (not related to fracking) with earthquakes. That's been tried before. I would be happy to have one of my technical staff with PG credentials critically review your findings if you wish.

valetutto wrote: Its interesting that someone can claim to have read it all and because they come to a different conclusion than another person, then that person must have not have read enough or at all or believe such-n-such.

This assumes that if everyone reads everything they will always come to the same conclusion which is simply false.

Apparently my argument has no basis in fact.
Ok, how about an argument from Authority?

I think maybe you have confused the argument that I was presenting as an argument for fracing. That is not what I was talking about at all. I am still in the, there may or may not be issues with the process, camp. I have yet to learn enough about the process to make a cognizant argument eiher way.

I shall address the three points above as they are the only ones that are relevant to what I said.

First, I have never nor would I ever consider saying I have read it all. The more I learn the more I find out that there is to learn. I only bring up my education as a point of fact that I have a very broad background from numerous sources. On the last part of your first point there does come a time when enough evidence has been presented where a person has to throw out a given conclusion and look for additional information. If you do not then you will continue to argue that 2+2=3 which is patently false. There also comes a point in time when enough data exists that the conclusion becomes inevitable.

As a person learns more options become fewer not greater. The obvious foibles of certain paths become so glaring that it would be the height of stupidity to follow such a path.

Second, If a person with a good education and a good background in history, sciences, etc. reads something then a person with a similar background is likely to come to the same conclusion. One of the best things that I ever learned was that everyone has a frame of reference. You must try and understand that frame of reference before you can understand the point the person is trying to make. That frame of reference can color their decisions and that is mostly what I have been talking about. Too many people today have a frame of reference that obliterates most of their cognitive abilities.

Third, do not confuse anything I said to you as being against your argument on fracing. I was not and am still not talking about fracing. Go back and look and you will see that my argument is based upon being told that a political discussion was impossible due to one opinion. I stand by what I said when you invoked the 'god clause' in your argument against what I was saying. You jumped to a conclusion based upon either anger or feelings that was not correct. You are doing the same thing in the above post as far as I am able to tell. However I could be wrong about that.

Disbeeleaf wrote: ...I couldn't resist the desire to try to maybe get one person glamoured by liberal political fantasy to see reality....

Unfortunately that takes something close to a tactical nuclear strike! That is still better than what it takes to get a far right wing christian fanatic to change their mind. Not by much I give you but still.

It may disturb the ultra left to face another reality - many libertarian conservatives are not religious right wing fanatics.

I support a woman's right to choose. Everyone should have complete control over their own body - no ifs, ands or buts.

I have no problem with gay marriage (and I'm not gay). I believe that everyone, including gays, should be able to do what they want, including marry and enjoy marital tax benefits, as long as it doesn't do harm to others.

I am also not a religious person, although I respect the rights of those who are, as long as they are not throwing bombs at me.

None of the above change the fact that the domination of our national economic decisions by environmental bogey men, outrageous entitlements, pie in the sky planning, and similar liberal principles is gradually and systematically destroying our society, and perhaps most sadly, the majority of liberals have no idea that it is happening.

Had a boss who said you could use statistical analysis to prove that killing turkeys causes winter.

So I've wondered... does fracking cause earthquakes, or are the best fracking sites along fault lines where earthquakes are the most likely to occur anyway?

And no, I don't claim to know the answer. But there is a lot of money to be made or lost on both sides so neither's motives can be considered pure.

Listen to the Stuff You Should Know podcast "How Fracking Works." They do a good job reviewing the history, the process, and the controversies regarding tracking. They try to be pretty objective.

bpsymington wrote: Listen to the Stuff You Should Know podcast "How Fracking Works." They do a good job reviewing the history, the process, and the controversies regarding tracking. They try to be pretty objective.

I'll check it out. It might tell me something that I have not seen yet on the subject.

One thing that I do know is that more exotic measures will have to be taken to get the energy the world needs. I have been hoping for some time that the private sector would look into Fusion Power. Unfortunately when you leave such things in the hands of universities and government entities they often succeed at only doing enough to guarantee the next grant. Maybe a fusion X prize would help.

The new Tokomak in France looks like it might be worthwhile but that has been said before unfortunately.

cdsmith wrote: Unfortunately that takes something close to a tactical nuclear strike! That is still better than what it takes to get a far right wing christian fanatic to change their mind. Not by much I give you but still.

Are you saying that Christians are far right wing? I really don't see that at all. If you are referring to cult like groups like the ones who protest funerals, well I will agree with you. They haven't actually read the Bible that I can tell.

Sorry. I derailed the fracking talk, but statements like that make me scratch my head.