TOPIC: Nothing to Prove - Geek Girls

cdsmith wrote: I have tried it Raven.

Good on ya! It always makes me happy when people push the boundaries of assigned gender. The more people who are comfortable with it, the less others will be likely to assume that they can correctly judge someone for their online usename.

I have played several MMOs over the years and have played both female and male characters. As a matter of fact I prefer playing female characters as I really don't like watching a male characters butt for that long while I am playing a game I have been in many guilds, more than half of them with female guild leaders and have rarely seen the issues you have described.

Has it occurred to you that Guilds with female Guild Leaders are way less likely to attract the sorts of guys who routinely engage in misogynistic behaviour? While I am very glad to hear that you seem to gravitate to female-friendly spaces, the fact remains that it is not always the case.

I don't know what to tell you but I just have not seen the issue in any degree that would tell me that there is some kind of universal bias.

I don't know what to tell you, but I have[ seen the issue, to the degree that would suggest to me there is a bias. Perhaps not a universal bias, but certainly one in large pockets within the subculture.

Perhaps your N=1 sample, and my N=1 sample, are not a good basis for making any sweeping judgement. For that, I would have to defer to the many studies online which have proven time & again that there really is a difference in the way that women & men experience the world of online gaming. (Dang it, I *do* have links to various studies, but on my other computer. I will try to post later)

There might have been at one time but not that I can see anymore. I have seen people that try that crap shot down FAST by the rest of the guilds I have been in.

You know what? I have seen it too. I have seen a lot of people take a stand against gender-bashing (vs. both males and females). More guilds refuse to put up with it. More Cons are instituting anti-harassment policies. More people will believe a girl when she says "that guy groped me!" instead of replying with "Maybe it was an accident" or "you probably imagined it". THIS IS GOOD. But the fact that more people are cracking down on it doesn't mean the problem has ceased to exist.

Raven wrote:

cdsmith wrote: I have tried it Raven.

You know what? I have seen it too. I have seen a lot of people take a stand against gender-bashing (vs. both males and females). More guilds refuse to put up with it. More Cons are instituting anti-harassment policies. More people will believe a girl when she says "that guy groped me!" instead of replying with "Maybe it was an accident" or "you probably imagined it". THIS IS GOOD. But the fact that more people are cracking down on it doesn't mean the problem has ceased to exist.

I know this is off topic, but speaking if groping. Are you running Rogues Game again, Raven?

Maybe we can treat gencon like a big dog park. Big dogs in one area, little dogs in another and a open area for both. If you cant play nice you get banished to your own area, and if you want to play with the same sized dogs, stay in your area.

No matter how enlightened our communities there will always be people who cross the line into intolarance on both sides of the argument.

I speak up when things get inappropriate in mixed company, but usally let things slide if it is not. Exploring taboo and marginally acceptable behavior has always been a component of role playing games and I would not change that for anything.

If something is happening that is unconftable for either gender, Speak UP!

I applaude the women of gaming who have carved a rightful place into this community and you should continue to be an example to all gamers of all ages that everyone has a right to be heard and accepted.

I don't think I would want to remain a part of this community if gender segregation is the answer to our ills.

Patrick Winter wrote: I don't think I would want to remain a part of this community if gender segregation is the answer to our ills.

I dont believe Havakavula was suggesting GENDER segregation, but rather the segregation of @$$-hats from non-@$$-hats... or if you will civilzed folks on the inside, and the filth outside (gender-neutral).

EN 429 wrote: I know this is off topic, but speaking if groping. Are you running Rogues Game again, Raven?

D'oh! Thanks for reminding me. I *knew* I was forgetting something in the pre-GenCon rush!

Fizzikx wrote:

Patrick Winter wrote: I don't think I would want to remain a part of this community if gender segregation is the answer to our ills.

I dont believe Havakavula was suggesting GENDER segregation, but rather the segregation of @$$-hats from non-@$$-hats... or if you will civilzed folks on the inside, and the filth outside (gender-neutral).

How about @$$-hats go inside a small fenced area. It'd get stinky in there real fast.

hmm ok comming in late to the conversation here so ignore me if this has been covered.

Esentially there are "people" out there that are saying "you're not a geek" to people clearly trying to identify themselves as a geek.

Maybe I'm old but if someone wants to strap on the burden of being a geek why would anyone disuade them. It didn't use to be cool and I'll be suprised if it is now "cool to be geek". But whatever.

The conversations I've seen that have disrupted into "your not a true geek" oddly enough in my observations tend to fall into 1 of 2 strata. Either it is a women saying it to a women or is a boy saying it to anyone else.

The 1st strata I chalk up to women being catty toward each other.
The 2nd I chalk up to boying being idiots.

(obviously these are generalizations but they tend to be accurate)


I think a side argument pop's up here that muddy the waters significantly when costumes get envolved. This issue I think folks are mis-assinging to the debate above.

What I'm talking about is, not all costumed people are cosplayers.
It goes like this. All cosplayers are geeks. Not all people in costume are cosplayers, therefore not all costume wearing people are geeks.

But why would a non-geek/"normal person" wear a costume?
The answer should be obviously simple $$
Many BoothBabes are not geeks, they are just women getting paid to do a job. Gencon also gets frequanted by women soliciting for a nearby nightclub.

So I can see a senerio where someone might say "she's not a true geek" and it would be nothing other than a factual statement. I tend to say "cosplayer-wanabie" I don't think its a bad thing but sometimes it comes off as false advertising in my mind. Its more sad than anything else when they don't even know the character name of the costume they are wearing.


So, next time you hear about or see a "not a true geek" thing pop-up question it. See what the root of the evil is and maybe we can come up with a solution. If it really is that there are geeks out there that are feeling so encroached upon due to popularity that they need to weed out the non-believers so they stand out, I think thats sad. To these folks I would say "Step up your game and let the lesser geeks fall away". Do the world a favor by being the biggest geek there is, fo invent a game and play it by yourself in a corner and don't bother anyone :O

Isn't that the whole point? It _is_ now trendy and cool to call yourself a geek. Just imagine if you were were a hipster, all those years digging through dumpsters for your daily freegan meals and only wearing wearing clothes you could find at good will smelling like urine for your lifestyle, generally shunned by society. Then one day, it's somehow cool and alternative in certain neighborhoods to be a hipster and you see all these suburban yuppie kids buying faux distressed vintage shirts from the gap and wearing hipster glasses walking around telling themselves and everyone else how hipster they are because they traveled into the city to watch an indie film that wasn't being shown at the local AMC.

Your first thought would be, who the flying @$^% are these little @$$holes? They end up applying only the most cosmetic and peripheral trappings of the hipster idea, in effect mocking it with their blatant fakery. You don't see any of these yuppie jerkoffs biking it and freeganing discarded 2 day-old bagels as they tell each other how hipster they are driving around in daddy's BMW and spending hundreds of dollars on clothes that just loook like they were pulled off a 1960's hobo. It's insulting and it's fundamentally an attack on who you are and everything you stand for. Now someone tells you that you have to accept these douchebags just because they claim they are hipsters? Screw that.

And just for the record, I don't consider video gamers to be geeks either in general. Especially not those counterstrike FPS @$$holes but most of them in general. I'm willing to grandfather you in if you're sitll playing old school nintendo hard games but if your claim to geekdom is your level 70 deathknight on WoW, you can bite me too.

I guess I just see things reverse of most people. You say you are a geek, I will accept that you are until you prove otherwise. When that person falls away, well it is no bother to me, because I will enjoy myself regardless.

I view it like some random @$$hat walking up and claiming to be a member of our street gang. Unless you've got the cred to back it up, someone's in for a sarcastic verbal whoopin'. Just wearing red doesn't make you a Blood.

As for why women might get more suspicion in general, I blame the prevalence of the 'girlfriend class'. I seriously doubt there's a single gamer in existence, at least who plays RPG, who hasn't run into the girlfriend class at some point. This is the guy who either drags his girlfriend to the game or whose girlfriend insists she wants to go so they can spend time together but is entirely freaking clueless about gaming. So you're forced to assign her to the girlfriend class, which someone actually wrote out a prestige class for once. All it did was heal and got a unicorn mount. And even though the character was set up to do only one damn thing, you still got to hear her ask her boyfriend what she should do every time it was her turn.

Hell, I know one girlfriend class person right now in a game I'm in. She's constantly asking him what she should do and I can't help raging in my head and wishing she'd just read the damn books for herself.