TOPIC: Nothing to Prove - Geek Girls

Okay, I've read this whole thread from beginning to end. Here are some thoughts from a geek-4-life.

1. I have literally bled for my geekdom. Have you? Were you kicked, punched and beaten up in school, because you were a geek? I was. 7th grade until I was a junior in high school was a daily nightmare.

2. I had to prove my geekdom, literally. I wanted to play D&D when I was ten. I was told "that game is the devil's work." At twelve years old, I wrote a report on D&D, not for school, but for my parents. I sat them down, and showed them how their information was wrong. I EARNED my right to play D&D. You better believe I ask for credentials when getting into geek discussions.

3. Men make sexist comments. This isn't limited to gamers. I would even bet that gamers do it in a much smaller percentage than their non-gamer counterparts.

4. There are different types of geekdom. As much as we try to lump them all together, they can be very different:
Cosplaying isn't the same genre as Magic the Gathering. MtG isn't the same genre as Board Games. Board Games is not the same genre as Comic Books. Comic Books aren't the same as D&D. A lot of people have overlapping interests in many of these areas, but they are not the same things.
To get included in any of those sub-cultures, you need to prove to the members of that group you are part of it.

5. I'm not intimidated by gamer girls . . . women. If you can prove that you are a geek like I am a geek, you are welcome to geek out at my table anytime. Hell, as long as you're not a poseur, I am willing to help anyone become a geek. Male or female doesn't matter to me.

Bottom line to me is this:
If you're a gamer, it shouldn't matter what your sex, skin color, eye color, sexual orientation or social status is. You are welcome at my game. (Except gingers*. 'cause everyone needs someone to hate.)

If you claim to be a gamer and aren't, then you will be ridiculed¹. But we will teach you the errors of your ways. If you can handle the hazing², you will be a gamer in no time.

Finally, I don't claim to understand what women go through. I will never understand. I hope if I misstep, that I am told I did. But, different women want different things. Some want to be looked at. Some don't. And they may wear the same clothes. I do my best to be polite and not stare. But I am human.

*both of my children are gingers, so this is most definitely a joke.
¹ You had better fall into one of these categories to claim to be a gamer at my game: min/maxer, role-player, basher, or strategist.
² Hazing will never include anything based on the physicality of a person. We will rib you constantly about which stat ties to which skill though.

Darkangel, excellent post! I had been thinking on this thread too.
Yes, I have bled for my geekdom, But it was because I was "into" dinosaurs, long before it was cool, and you had to go to the local museum center, and give the secret signal to buy plastic dinosaur toys.

There are certainly different types of geekdom. In some ways it has to be self identified. I have always thought of it as that which places you outside the perceived mainstream. I hope there are no litmus tests, as I would probably give a pH of 8.3 or so (chem joke from someone who has used litmus paper. I consider myself more alkaline than acidic).
But I would certainly fail geek cred if the afore mentioned Star Destroyer vs Enterprise was it. Yes, I saw Star Wars in the theater. I built a paper mache stormtrooper outfit for Halloween. I refuse to call Star Wars "Episode 4", but Star Trek I have always enjoyed, but never watched extensively. It is my wife who has the boxed sets of OS and TNG and who's first question when I read her this thread was "which Enterprise?".

I would fail if comic books were the test. I had comic books growing up, but never considered myself into comics. I would hang out with my friends at the local comic store. They had standing orders for comics as they came out. I would occasionally buy the newest "Jurassic Park" issue. Then we would go watch hockey. My wife is the one who has seen all the X men movies.

You mentioned Cosplay. Costuming, Cosplay and LARPing are certain signs of geekdom right? I love playing Zombie Rising at GenCon, but am totally unfamiliar with most of the video game and anime characters that people costume. I LARP the War of 1812. Most of my fellow re-enactors readily admit it is a LARP, and most are gamers! One of my Lieutenant's first questions to me was "Have you ever played Magic the Gathering?". I got involved after meeting a couple of the guys at the local game convention playing Memoir 44 with 54mm toy soldiers and Zulu Wars in 25mm. Now I game 1:1 scale.

I have been called the biggest dork by my weekly D&D group. I guess it crosses a line when you have your elf character speak elvish. Curiously, only one member of our group doesn't play fantasy football. We have email discussions that drift between merits of multi-classing, short-coming of 4th edition and which running back to take in the first round.

I played D&D in high school in the shadows as most did. The one D&D event at the local game store I attended had exactly one girl. Everyone was amazed, and secretly hoped she would be placed with our group. Now, our ongoing Gamma World campaign features three married couples. Who would have ever thought that 30 years ago?

What happens when stereotypical geek interests go mainstream? Someone mentioned Twilight. My wife and I tried to go to the local Horror convention because she wanted to see the original Stephen King Christine automobile. Well Walking Dead cast members were there, and you couldn't even get into the building. Are zombies no longer "geek" because they have gone mainstream?

What I found most amazing about GenCon was that all these folks come together, with various different passions and everyone for once is "normal". Who I find to be ridiculous is the guy in the Colts jersey who is walking around trying to somehow look like they are cooler because they aren't into the things the other 40,000 people are here for. I never have seen true bullying, beside genre derision (CCG's vs RPG's vs miniature, and the vociferous Pathfinder vs 4E debate) but then I blend in with the majority of attendees. I had always been on the receiving end so I attempt to never return it. Everyone is welcome at my table.

One last humorous example of the relativity of what makes one a geek. In the living history community there tends to be a rift between Civil War reenactors and non Civil War reenactors. Those into F&I (French and Indian War), Rev War, 1812 and such, sometimes refer to the Civil War as "Silly War", because Civil War reenactors can be extremely dedicated to the point of exclusion. I pointed out that most people find all of us weird, and don't pick it apart conflict by conflict. "Oh WWI reenactors are fine, but the Mexican War guys are nuts!"

Sorry for my 5am stream of consciousness rambling.

darkangel866 wrote: Bottom line to me is this:
If you're a gamer, it shouldn't matter what your sex, skin color, eye color, sexual orientation or social status is. You are welcome at my game. (Except gingers*. 'cause everyone needs someone to hate.)

Remember gingers* have no souls, so it's ok to hate them!!!!

Just joking as I am a ginger too!

Fantastic Post Darkangel.

I think my biggest problem with "warnings" like the OP pushed out is that they never reach the intended target. Those of us here at TD and especially the forums know all of this already. The ones that need it never see the warning. That leaves the rest of us here feeling like we are being bashed over the head with something we know damned well already!

I don't care what you are, male, female, transgender or alien. If you sit down at a gaming table and say, "I'm a great *insert game name here* player!" you will be challenged on it. It is the very nature of gamers. Games are played to be won so the very nature of our hobby attracts that type of personality.

cdsmith wrote:
I don't care what you are, male, female, transgender or alien. If you sit down at a gaming table and say, "I'm a great *insert game name here* player!" you will be challenged on it. It is the very nature of gamers. Games are played to be won so the very nature of our hobby attracts that type of personality.

True, but if you sit down to a table and say "I'm new to *insert game name here*" or "I suck at *insert game name here* but love it" I don't know many communities that are more welcoming then TD. Competitive or not though everyone has the right to feel safe at events like this. I don't think anyone's saying don't be competitive but stories like the ones Raven sited are well outside the realm of competitiveness.

Picc wrote:

cdsmith wrote:
I don't care what you are, male, female, transgender or alien. If you sit down at a gaming table and say, "I'm a great *insert game name here* player!" you will be challenged on it. It is the very nature of gamers. Games are played to be won so the very nature of our hobby attracts that type of personality.

True, but if you sit down to a table and say "I'm new to *insert game name here*" or "I suck at *insert game name here* but love it" I don't know many communities that are more welcoming then TD. Competitive or not though everyone has the right to feel safe at events like this. I don't think anyone's saying don't be competitive but stories like the ones Raven sited are well outside the realm of competitiveness.

100% agreed Picc. Most gamers that I have met are more than willing to help the newbies get addicted to whatever gamer-crack that they show an interest in.

Let me give you some context about me and why I've posted what I have here:

I'm a minister. (Not yet ordained, but so close to being approved for such that I wake up afraid every day.) I'm a minister in a tradition that emphasizes social justice (Unitarian Universalist). I have taken class upon class and attended seminar upon seminar and made a trip to Chiapas, Mexico as part of my anti-oppression training. I have been trained to see exclusionary societal practices, to hold a great fire and passion for working toward what Martin Luther King, Jr. termed Beloved Community (this transcends the civil rights race-based context, even in MLK's writings). No person should live in fear of being who she or he is. We must work to be the inclusive society/community we often say that we desire.

I believe you when you say that you've already received the message of "don't be a dick." I believe you that you're tired of hearing about this because you always try to treat women in gaming well. I believe that you subject men to the same geek cred tests that you do women. I believe that you mean well when you offer to beat the shit out of any guy who physically threatens a woman. (In a different vein, I feel for those of you who have also suffered physically and emotionally for not being accepted for what you enjoy and who you are.)

These are good things.

But, look at who plays TD. Look at who attends GenCon. Look at the demographics on this forum.

Men vastly outnumber women. There are reasons there aren't more women at the table, and it is incumbent upon the gaming community (including and especially the men) to figure out why and make changes to be truly welcoming of everybody.

If women are publicly asserting their geekdom in videos like my original post, I think it says something very clear. We don't feel welcome. We feel threatened. Gaming is yet another space where women are not welcome. Where we must work especially hard to continue to prove our own worth and dignity.

I'm a lady preacher. I was last year *the first* woman to serve the congregation I served full-time. A member of the lay committee helping me to be the best minister I could critiqued one of my sermons by saying that I needed to be careful to not sound "too powerful." If you think for a moment that he would have given the same comment to a male preacher, check yourself. I get comments from my congregation about how pretty I am, about my shoes, about my choice of clothing - all things they would not dream of saying to a male preacher. I want to be noticed for being a rock star of a minister and preacher, not for what I look like.

I have to be on my guard as a woman in my job. Know full well that I do not want to deal with the same crap while engaging my hobbies. GenCon is my only vacation this summer. (I work weekends for goodness' sake!)

So, as I am called to notice oppression and exclusion in communities, I cannot help but see and grieve the community that I want to call my own. So, I bring it up. That's who I am. That's my job. I am filled with a passion and a rage and it comes out here - as I ask you to help me make gaming better for everyone.

I've noticed at least one comment about how I've disappeared from the conversation for lengths of time. My apologies that I don't actually want to spend my days arguing. I just want the topic to be there, to not let my community of gamers slip into a false belief that everything's fine, that everyone is welcome and the same. 'Cause the truth is that the wider gaming community isn't welcoming to everyone, in particular women. It's not the women who need to change, it's the wider community that must intentionally make space for them.

Also, my work is exceptionally demanding and stressful, especially *right now.* Which is why you won't hear from me again in this thread. I have a major deadline looming ahead, upon which my career depends.

- Deaterrae

Thank you for not descending into name-calling or slurs. This conversation has been remarkably civil and issue-based. I can never express fully how much that means to me.

henwy wrote: A woman just agreed with me? Either I'm seriously losing my touch or...blah blah blah

Henwy... I'm sad now. I've agreed with you several times. I'm never bringing you cupcakes again! =[


But seriously - I apologize for being late to the party, and I admit I have only glanced at the last few longer posts. (and now I'm going to add one of my own) This is just an account of my own experiences.

I have been gaming for over 30 years and I have seen plenty as a female gamer. I remember one of my first Gen Cons when I walked into the War Room to play a game of Axis & Allies. I heard a lot of "does she know she's in the wrong room?" or "she must be looking for her boyfriend" type comments. So when I sat down at the table to play and then won with Japan, there were a lot of shocked looks.
Years ago, there were just not a lot of girls at gaming conventions. For a lot of the guys, they were places to get away from their wives or girlfriends (ok, who are we kidding... their moms) HA! So the few women that were in attendance were almost invading their sacred territory. Well, sorry boys, but I like gaming too.
Anyway, as the years progressed, I started seeing changes at the conventions. There were more girls going every year. First, most of them were just into the Vampire games or some of the card games. Plenty were just there for the dealer hall or yeah, to be there with their boyfriends. Meh. I admit, these ones kind of upset me for a while. If you're just going to be a distraction, go somewhere else. *sigh*

My personal gaming life has had ups and downs as well. It started out when I was 12 and my best friend's dad brought a box up from the basement and said "hey, kids, I got a new game I think you'll all like" and he presented us with the D&D red box. After that first game, we were all hooked and spent much of our summers and weekends playing one role playing game or another. A few of the other girls from the neighborhood were in the group too, so it was never a gender issue. But then everyone grew up and went to different high schools and colleges or moved away. Sadness.
But, I did happen to go on a date with a guy who mentioned playing D&D (and that's why he got a second date... no lie). So I had a new group for a while. And yeah, this one had other girls in it too, and it was normal. But eventually that group broke up as well.
Fast forward to the more recent past. About three years ago, I walked into my local gaming store for D&D Encounters. I know there are some female gamers who frequent the store, but I was the only one there that night. I walked up to a table and asked if they had a spot open. The guys welcomed me to the table. As soon as I set down my huge bag of dice, one of them pointed to it and remarked that he guessed I already knew how to play. =]
I am still gaming with these guys today, three days a week. Yikes!
Yes, it has had it's bad moments, like when a new guy joined us one week and got there before me - when my turn came up, he thought he needed to explain to me which dice were which. The others loked at him like he'd just called Chuck Norris a coward. Ha! And yes, sometimes with the NPCs the topics of boobs or rape come up. Now, I appreciate the female form so sometimes I join in about the first topic, but the second does make me quite uncomfortable, and they usually pick up on it without me having to say anything, and back off of it.
Anyway, I strayed a bit... my biggest point here was that most of my gamer friends don't see me as a "girl gamer" - they see me as a gamer. Period. And that's how I like it.

Getting back to the conventions real quick. Yes, women in gaming are still subjected to some criticism, but it still is more of a guy hobby to a lot of people. It has come a long way and we can't expect change overnight. It doesn't happen with anything.
I'm glad to see that there are so many more women involved in this great hobby. But if you call yourself a gamer or a geek (of either gender) I am also going to call you on it. Show me your creds, or you're just a wannabe until you do. =]

Good luck in your career preparations!

Let's see if I did this right.

Psst, Bri... check out the original post

D'oh! Either I missed it when the thread started, or I forgot about it.