TOPIC: Nothing to Prove - Geek Girls

Adeya wrote:


Now, as a girl gamer myself I can understand how the world of geekdom is a As long as no one hangs up "No Girls Allowed"

I am going to hang up a NO BOYS ALLOWED sign (in small print except me)...That way all the women will be hanging out with me

For what it's worth I'm sorry for whatever part I played in the derailing, no disrespect was meant to you or the issue.

Re respect vs courtesy, to me it's a matter of semantics but those are important to some folks too so in the end whatever you want to call it I try to subscribe to Wil Wheaton's philosophy and not be a dick wherever possible.

To the actual issue, I'll try to choose my words carefully since at the core I think that we as a community need to stick together against the jerks (who sadly are usually guys). That's not to say that all guys are jerks (which can sometime be how these threads read after a while) or that all girls are saints but IMO we as guys need to sucks that up and work to change the perception. Ya, most of us reading this likely aren't part of the problem but members of our community have spoken up and told us there is a problem. If we ignore it we are giving our silent consent for it to continue and that is not ok. If we as guys want to change the language used to describe the problem we need to become part of the solution and make it clear that harassment is not okay.

cdsmith wrote: I really believe that the issue is a complete non-issue. In the last eight years I have been to Gencon I have not once seen anything like you describe.

Dang it, man! I *wish* I could be you! To have gone through 8 years of GenCon and not see any bias against your gender? Must be nice.

Unfortunately, I can't claim this is a non-issue.

I'm gonna get down and dirty here, and share some of the fun I've had at GenCon over the years:

- Walking around in a cloak, pirate shirt, and leather pants, and being told I'd look a lot better if I had a corset as part of the outfit. (It's not so much the costuming suggestions which bug me, as the idea that my choices - or any woman's choice - of how to dress must be based on whether we make nice eye candy for the guys. Not on whether the costume makes me happy personally or even whether it is comfortable to wear.) Just one such comment I would brush off... but after regular, repeated comments, it grates on you. Especially the guy who said "Please, You gotta wear a corset with that outfit. I almost mistook you for a dude!"

- Having a guy (in the True Dungeon Tavern, 2006) grabbing my shirt during Rogue's Game, and trying to put a sticker on my ass. I had to firmly tell him 3 times this was not acceptable, and even after I called two other guys to physically pull him away/remove him from the tavern, he was still grabbing at my clothes.

- Walking down dark Indianapolis streets at night, and noticing a pack of guys following me, commenting under their breath on how "elf girls are all nymphos". TBH, I don't think they were even gamers, just local downtown denizens. But apparently there is a significant enough stereotype within gaming of the "horny elf girl" that it has bled over to the mundanes. Now, I grew up in a rougher end of town, and was pretty sure I wasn't in physical danger, but all the same, I took stock of my options, made sure my arms were free for swinging if necessary, and I caught up to a larger group of gamers at the next set of lights. Because who wants to walk down dark unfamiliar streets at night wondering if the comments behind them are harmless banter, or the prelude to something nastier?

- Working as a Coach in TD's crowded, poorly lit coaching rooms last year, and finding a male gamer staring blatantly down my blouse, while I helped prepare his Party Card.

Know what's the most disturbing thing about all this? I don't even have any significant cleavage! I'm in my 40's. I dress in pants and T-shirts, and don't give off any "cute gamer girl" vibes that I am aware of. In fact, I still get mistaken for a guy on a pretty regular basis. So, if this is happening to *me*, you can bet it's happening to pretty, younger, more buxom girls, with stunning regularity. And if you're not the betting type, just ask around. Many girls have similar (or worse) stories. Some simply choose not to go to cons any more because of it. Other girls get so used to it, they automatically shrug it off. Or, in gaming circles, they just put up with it because it's part of the price they need to pay to hang out in greater geekdom.

But it's not something anyone should have to put up with.

I'll be honest: it's not a problem for me. I am comfortable enough in who and what I am that this rarely bothers me. But if someone tells me it is a problem for them, I have to trust that it really is a problem for them. It's not that they need to man up, or get a thicker skin simply because I have a thick skin. I can listen to their point of view, and try to make their world a better place, because I really want to see more people - male and female alike - comfortable going to conventions.

I long for the day when this truly is a non-issue.

Until then, I can handle it being brought up from time to time.

Raven wrote: - Walking down dark Indianapolis streets at night, and noticing a pack of guys following me, commenting under their breath on how "elf girls are all nymphos". TBH, I don't think they were even gamers, just local downtown denizens.

Please, don't walk alone in a strange place at night. Whether you're Raven, Lazlo, or Chuck Norris; or the location is Indianapolis or Mayberry, it's risky behavior. Be safe!

binia wrote:

Raven wrote: - Walking down dark Indianapolis streets at night, and noticing a pack of guys following me, commenting under their breath on how "elf girls are all nymphos". TBH, I don't think they were even gamers, just local downtown denizens.

Please, don't walk alone in a strange place at night. Whether you're Raven, Lazlo, or Chuck Norris; or the location is Indianapolis or Mayberry, it's risky behavior. Be safe!

if any female is walking with me..nothing will ever happen to them (unless I am killed). I will hold who ever they are (how ever many of them there are) until the female(s) I am with are safe
Worst experince I had was on the El Train in chicago after a cubs game. I thought I was going to take on a train car full of men. I didnt back down and i had rage on my side ...The words that came out of my mouth were "how far are you willing to go, I will go one step farther", The men backed down. The women I was with would have got off at the next stop, nobody else would have left that train car.
If you need to go someplace even slightly questionable, ask me and I will walk with you(or if you feel slightly uncomfortable...I will walk you where you need..

It sounds like a lot of these examples are male-female relationship problems in general and not necessarily specific to GenCon in particular. Guys yelling out inappropriate things and staring where you wish they didn't is something that happens everywhere. I'm not saying that it's ok that it happens, just that I don't think the convention is to blame. I know gamer conventions can draw out some socially-challenged people, but jerks are everywhere. As a woman - yes, Henwy I really am female - it's something I wish would stop too. But I don't like the idea of vilifying my fellow gamers either.

binia wrote: Please, don't walk alone in a strange place at night. Whether you're Raven, Lazlo, or Chuck Norris; or the location is Indianapolis or Mayberry, it's risky behavior. Be safe!

Wise words.

Still, when it's late and you're having fun, and you stay out at the Steak&Shake 'til all your roommates have gone home, and suddenly realize every one else's hotel is in the opposite direction... sometimes you don't have a lot of choice. (And the Steak and Shake doesn't let people sleep on their benches. Not that I've tried. )

Having had that one unsavoury experience, I have to thank Charles (AKA "The Hand") for walking me back to the J.W./Marriott/Embassy on more than one occasion. And Kim for being my late-night Steak&Shake buddy on other occasions.

Raven wrote:

binia wrote: Please, don't walk alone in a strange place at night. Whether you're Raven, Lazlo, or Chuck Norris; or the location is Indianapolis or Mayberry, it's risky behavior. Be safe!

Wise words.

Still, when it's late and you're having fun, and you stay out at the Steak&Shake 'til all your roommates have gone home, and suddenly realize every one else's hotel is in the opposite direction... sometimes you don't have a lot of choice. (And the Steak and Shake doesn't let people sleep on their benches. Not that I've tried. )

Having had that one unsavoury experience, I have to thank Charles (AKA "The Hand") for walking me back to the J.W./Marriott/Embassy on more than one occasion. And Kim for being my late-night Steak&Shake buddy on other occasions.

I would be glad to join you ate anytime this year

Adeya wrote: It sounds like a lot of these examples are male-female relationship problems in general and not necessarily specific to GenCon in particular. Guys yelling out inappropriate things and staring where you wish they didn't is something that happens everywhere.

True. Completely true.

Where it gets a little trickier is that many gamers have been picked on their whole lives for having an unpopular hobby, so when you call someone out on poor behaviour, it seems like you are picking on them, and hackles go up faster than you can blink. Gamers get this great herd-mentality going on, and they will close ranks against anyone who calls them on their shit.

Toss in the fact that many geek guys have had problems getting a girlfriend, and it's really common to find geeks who are angry at women, or who simply don't know how to treat them as human beings. Not surprising when RPGs/comics/fantasy novels are also written primarily by men who don't know how to treat women as humans instead of objects.

Throw thousands of insecure, resentful, awkward guys into the same space for a weekend, and it's not surprising that many women consider it an extremely uncomfortable place to be.

Luckily, gamers are growing up. The hobby is growing up. There's more positive role models than before. There's more conventions with anti-harrassment policies. There's more guys who remind their nerd-brothers that joking about rape in games is not cool. There's more girls who will come out and share their creepy experiences, so people realize that everything's not all pixie dust and mushrooms in gamer-land.

I'm trying to provide a link to a YouTube video, and I have it here as I write or edit the post, but when I submit it, the link is gone. Any clues?

And it's germane to the topic!

bpsymington wrote: I'm trying to provide a link to a YouTube video, and I have it here as I write or edit the post, but when I submit it, the link is gone. Any clues?

Try using the "video" tag, instead of generic "link" tag. It's on the helpful bar of icons, right next to the "ebay" link generator.