TOPIC: Nothing to Prove - Geek Girls

I have a huge problem with warnings of the type the OP issued. It assumes all men are douchbags and need to be warned off of their Neanderthal behavior. This is not the case at all. Most men are respectful and nice human beings that will not engage in untoward behavior. As a matter of fact most men will defend others, be they male or female, at significant cost to themselves many times. The universal lumping of men into the evil sex has gotten old, worn-out and tiring. If you have issues with a particular man PERSON then deal with it. Do not lump everyone together just because of their sex. If you do that you are just as bad as the idiotic men that do that to women.

As to respect, I give respect to people that have earned it. I give common courtesy to everyone else. I wonder when respect got downgraded to something we are supposed to give to people every day. That is not what respect is. Respect is earned and that cannot be done without first knowing about a person. I have great respect for Raven because she is a genuinely nice person and a great gamer. I have great respect for Henwy because he is a great gamer, generally nice and is not afraid to speak his mind. Their sex never enters the picture on whether that respect should be given or not. I give everyone common courtesy as is expected in polite society.

On that thought there was no disrespect intended with the thread going off on a tangent. All threads go off tangent. That should be a compliment to someone calling themselves a feminist gamer! You see, we already got the message. It has been beaten into our heads for years. The fact that we don’t see it as an issue should tell you that for the most part it isn’t an issue. I really believe that the issue is a complete non-issue. In the last eight years I have been to Gencon I have not once seen anything like you describe. Are their douchbag idiots who will do what you warn about? Of course there are. Then there are also people that will continue to lump all men in with those idiots. Neither action is acceptable anymore.

I never got the impression that Deaterrae was lumping all men into a stereotypically evil, sexist lump. She was bringing up a valid point that she has had to deal with douchebag idiots. She, and any other gamer, male or female, shouldn't have to put up with that. As someone at a sort of staff level (adventure coordinator), I am glad I know about that, so I can address it if it happens in the dungeon or anywhere in the TD world.

I'm pretty sure you were supposed to add 'no homo' after saying you respected me.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: see this is what is wrong with society. The topic went on a tangent so you make the assumption that it is disrespecting you.

Whoa.
Catch me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think Deaterrae said "You are disrespecting me by derailing this topic." Nor can you say "she made the assumption" unless you've got some brain-control device which lets you know what is going on in her head.

What she did, was to bring the thread back to it's original topic - a totally legit play in geek forums, which *do* have a tendency to go off topic.

It disrespects you , because you want to think that way.

Again, please don't tell Deaterrae - or anyone, male or female - what they think, or what they want to think.

In actuality, the thread went on a tangent and kept going (this happens alot in the forums)

Yep. Totally agree with you there. TD forums go off topic no matter *what* the topic.
They also frequently get brought back onto topic later, to greater or lesser degrees of success.

That actually made me mad that you would think that. You are making a big deal out of nothing.

I am really sorry to hear that you got mad about this, Laz.

In my experience, you are generally a decent guy, very level headed, and one of the first people I would go to if I was having a problem with some misogynist git. I would feel put out as well, if someone told *me* I was being disrespectful of anyone, especially when I try to be the opposite!

But "making a big deal out of nothing" ... hm. I don't know.

The bias against women in gaming is *huge*. This small tangent we went on is just that; a little geeky tangent. Harmless in its own right. But it's part of a much, much bigger problem. And while you and I so many others meant nothing by it, there are people who will look at the derailing and think "Good. Just ignore the Bitch. Who needs her feminist ranting anyway?" Those same people may look at your passionate response, and agree that, yeah, these bloody women are always making a big deal out of nothing.

The thing is, just because it was nothing to you, and nothing to maybe 90% of us ADHD, easily-distracted, gamers... doesn't mean it's nothing. It really does mean something, to many people. And in a thread titled "Geek Girls" it is completely legit and on topic to call into question whether people chose to go off topic deliberately, or allowed themselves to get derailed, or whether they didn't even noticed that they were ignoring a bigger topic.

My thanks to Deaterrae for being willing to push against the tide of people on this moving walk-way, and I hope some good discussion comes of it.

We can always start another thread on "The relative merits of Star Wars vs Star Trek", or "Which Troll Bridge is Henwy going to lurk under Today?" (Cuz Henwy is an equal-opportunity troll if I've ever met one

just an off hand thought...

Men like to challenge each other. It is in our nature. We like to challenge and be challenged. We like to have venues where we can argue about things and assert our knowledge. We do that to each other all the time. To not do the same because of a person’s sex would be the height of sexism wouldn’t it?

If I wasn't pretty sure she actually believed it, I'd have labeled her a concern troll right off the bat. What else would you call it? It's like going onto a random forum about a st patricks day parade and saying BLACK PEOPLE DON'T OWE YOU ANY EXPLANATION OR JUSTIFICATION FOR MARCHING IN THE PARADE! And of course the reaction is WTF? Where the hell did that come from?

And of course it's not even like the person engages. Just tosses a bag of #@^& and then vanishes, only to reappear only when we don't seem to be poking the poo-pile vigorously enough to entertain her.

Raven wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: see this is what is wrong with society. The topic went on a tangent so you make the assumption that it is disrespecting you.

Whoa.
Catch me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think Deaterrae said "You are disrespecting me by derailing this topic." Nor can you say "she made the assumption" unless you've got some brain-control device which lets you know what is going on in her head.

What she did, was to bring the thread back to it's original topic - a totally legit play in geek forums, which *do* have a tendency to go off topic.

It disrespects you , because you want to think that way.

Again, please don't tell Deaterrae - or anyone, male or female - what they think, or what they want to think.

In actuality, the thread went on a tangent and kept going (this happens alot in the forums)

Yep. Totally agree with you there. TD forums go off topic no matter *what* the topic.
They also frequently get brought back onto topic later, to greater or lesser degrees of success.

That actually made me mad that you would think that. You are making a big deal out of nothing.

I am really sorry to hear that you got mad about this, Laz.

In my experience, you are generally a decent guy, very level headed, and one of the first people I would go to if I was having a problem with some misogynist git. I would feel put out as well, if someone told *me* I was being disrespectful of anyone, especially when I try to be the opposite!

But "making a big deal out of nothing" ... hm. I don't know.

The bias against women in gaming is *huge*. This small tangent we went on is just that; a little geeky tangent. Harmless in its own right. But it's part of a much, much bigger problem. And while you and I so many others meant nothing by it, there are people who will look at the derailing and think "Good. Just ignore the Bitch. Who needs her feminist ranting anyway?" Those same people may look at your passionate response, and agree that, yeah, these bloody women are always making a big deal out of nothing.

The thing is, just because it was nothing to you, and nothing to maybe 90% of us ADHD, easily-distracted, gamers... doesn't mean it's nothing. It really does mean something, to many people. And in a thread titled "Geek Girls" it is completely legit and on topic to call into question whether people chose to go off topic deliberately, or allowed themselves to get derailed, or whether they didn't even noticed that they were ignoring a bigger topic.

My thanks to Deaterrae for being willing to push against the tide of people on this moving walk-way, and I hope some good discussion comes of it.

We can always start another thread on "The relative merits of Star Wars vs Star Trek", or "Which Troll Bridge is Henwy going to lurk under Today?" (Cuz Henwy is an equal-opportunity troll if I've ever met one

sent you a private message on this

henwy wrote: If I wasn't pretty sure she actually believed it, I'd have labeled her a concern troll right off the bat. What else would you call it? It's like going onto a random forum about a st patricks day parade and saying BLACK PEOPLE DON'T OWE YOU ANY EXPLANATION OR JUSTIFICATION FOR MARCHING IN THE PARADE! And of course the reaction is WTF? Where the hell did that come from?

And of course it's not even like the person engages. Just tosses a bag of #@^& and then vanishes, only to reappear only when we don't see to be poking the poo-pile vigorously enough to entertain her.

my blow up was at the un edited post, She went back and edited it..if I would have read what is there now, I wouldn't have responded

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

henwy wrote: If I wasn't pretty sure she actually believed it, I'd have labeled her a concern troll right off the bat. What else would you call it? It's like going onto a random forum about a st patricks day parade and saying BLACK PEOPLE DON'T OWE YOU ANY EXPLANATION OR JUSTIFICATION FOR MARCHING IN THE PARADE! And of course the reaction is WTF? Where the hell did that come from?

And of course it's not even like the person engages. Just tosses a bag of #@^& and then vanishes, only to reappear only when we don't see to be poking the poo-pile vigorously enough to entertain her.

my blow up was at the un edited post, She went back and edited it..if I would have read what is there now, I wouldn't have responded

Ah yes, the retro edit at work again. I too did not go back and re-read the edited post.

henwy wrote: If I wasn't pretty sure she actually believed it, I'd have labeled her a concern troll right off the bat. What else would you call it? It's like going onto a random forum about a st patricks day parade and saying BLACK PEOPLE DON'T OWE YOU ANY EXPLANATION OR JUSTIFICATION FOR MARCHING IN THE PARADE! And of course the reaction is WTF? Where the hell did that come from?

And of course it's not even like the person engages. Just tosses a bag of #@^& and then vanishes, only to reappear only when we don't seem to be poking the poo-pile vigorously enough to entertain her.

Yeah that pretty much covers it. Had not heard the terminology 'concern troll' but I am going to use that in the future.

In today's society "tolerance" is an idea that is crammed down everyone's throats. Now I'm not saying that "tolerance" itself is a bad thing, but by now we get it and we are ready to move on. And if there are still people being jerks to each other then yes, of course other people (including the intended target) need to speak up and stop them.

This latest focus on girl gamers is another example. And if people deviate from the topic on a forum it's probably not because:

Deaterrae wrote: But, please don't trivialize it. Don't just change the topic. Please. Doing so continues to disregard the presence of women in gaming.

Instead the topic was deviated from because it has been covered, and another topic was mentioned: the topic of a star wars vs trek debate which is something way, way more interesting to most geeks than gender equality.

Now, as a girl gamer myself I can understand how the world of geekdom is a male-dominated one, but frankly I don't care. If someone doubts my geek card and starts quizzing me on all things geek/gamer related, that's awesome - it just means that I am now talking about geek stuff with a random stranger at a Con. And I totally agree with Henwy, that making someone prove their geek cred is ok to do regardless of gender.

I've never felt threatened by being a girl in a boy's hobby. I know some people don't want to see geekdom/gaming as a boy's hobby, but instead as a gender-neutral hobby, but that's what we have now. It'll probably change with time as more girls are introduced to it. But if the industry continues to be mostly male, that's ok too. As long as no one hangs up "No Girls Allowed" signs then us girls can play with the boys and not worry about it.

Now, if there are girls who do feel threatened by attending a mostly male gaming convention who don't like getting their geek cards doubted then they need to man up a bit . I'm not saying it's ok to harass people, but we need to stop looking for insults when often they are not there. Quizzing someone because you doubt their geek card is a test, not an insult to women everywhere.

A woman just agreed with me? Either I'm seriously losing my touch or...clearly the more likely option....Adeya is really a man.