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TOPIC: 2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East

2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #37

Mike Steele wrote: I'm not sure we're still in the design process. It sounds like these designs are locked in and already sent out for manufacturing.

But this is more than a token change. We were told that Trinkets were not going to be in this set and that you could only use one trinket a run. Then at the last minute we get a trinket and the rules change again.

Honestly this trinket should be removed until after the class redesign happens.

Jeff Martin wrote: All damage is Sacred.

Acherin wrote: I also added VTD support for the most annoying token of 2024 the +2 Sun Scimitar.

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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #38

Grizwald wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'm not sure we're still in the design process. It sounds like these designs are locked in and already sent out for manufacturing.

But this is more than a token change. We were told that Trinkets were not going to be in this set and that you could only use one trinket a run. Then at the last minute we get a trinket and the rules change again.

Honestly this trinket should be removed until after the class redesign happens.


I think it's fixing a problem. Saying Polymorph is going to be the main Druid identity and then limiting it to once per Dungeon was a mistake in my opinion, and I'm glad it was reversed. Removing the trinket from the set means there are no polymorph enabling tokens in it, so I'm glad it was added back in.
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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #39

  • Impy
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Checked for:
Spelling
Rarity Symbols
Art Oddities
Transmutation Good
  • I thought in 2024 Robes were converted to AG, Robe of Battlemage is MS
  • Bead of Bear Hug missing right Pupil
  • Tyr's Sacred Ring of Wrath - Appears to not have a matching glow, yellow instead of red, but I'm colorblind so who knows~
  • Trinket of Bearform marked as AG. This contradicts Trinket of Trollform's Errata stating it should be DP

Edit: Removed Transmutation Analysis to post all rarity in 1 area
Last edit: by Impy.
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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #40

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Transmutation Analysis
(Assumes Bearform changed to DP and Battlemage Robe changed to AG)

As table shows, AI is suffering a major deficient this year. Almost a 30% decrease in pulls.

MS and DP seem to have shifted between each other, I think this is probably fine

MH is 16% higher than previous year, but this is also probably fine since its a pack common and a variation of 1 isn't a big deal.

Suggestion: Maybe drop 1 rare weapon for 1 rare potion to help make up the giant AI deficient this year

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Last edit: by Impy.
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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #41

Polymorph Potions are slotless, take a Free Action to retrieve, and a Standard Action to consume, and can only be used once before they are turned in to the DM (but additional copies may be used to repeat the effect):
Rare Polymorph potions [ Click to expand ]

Trinkets are slotless, take an Instant Action to activate, can be used repeatedly in a dungeon, and are kept forever. Prior to the latest ruling, each copy could only be used once, but additional copies may be used to repeat the effect:
Rare Trinkets [ Click to expand ]

There are a few other polymorph enablers, which take up a slot, require an Instant Action to activate, can be used as many time as one wishes as long as the cost is paid each time, and are kept forever:
UR+ Polymorph enablers [ Click to expand ]


This indicates Trollform is overtuned; and should never have been allowed to work as it did. We already have one problematic token; let's not make a second.

An average damage of 7 (and no other ability) would be more in line with existing Polymorph potions. While there are a few potions that have better damage, you do not need an Action to activate a Trinket; and you do not need to turn in the token. It would still remain better than other Rare weapons.
Cleric main / Druid secondary
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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #42

Suggestion:
Remove "as an Instant Action" from Trinket of Bearform (leaving just "Polymorph into Bear"), to keep it consistent with the wording on Trollform. As a side benefit, it'll also allow for Polymorph activation to be tweaked later, if necessary, without needing to issue an erratum to weaken the printed text on a token.

Suggestion:
Use a damage wheel of [2-4-6-8-10-12] to match that of Potion Polymorph (Bear) .

Suggestion:
Literally just reprint Potion Polymorph (Bear) (or Potion Polymorph (Cave Bear) for a somewhat higher damage wheel) instead
Cleric main / Druid secondary
Last edit: by Ho-Yi Fung.
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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #43

If it is going to be the current trinket damage wheel it should have a special ability like trollform did. I think if it had the similar damage wheel as trollform and x3 damage on a crit it would be a very interesting token that folks might situationally consider using when creatures are not crit immune.

Also being mauled by a bear feels like a x3 crit kind of thing.
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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #44

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: This indicates Trollform is overtuned; and should never have been allowed to work as it did. We already have one problematic token; let's not make a second.

You might ask, if Trollform is overtuned, how did it leave token design last year in its current form?

It was pointed out last year. I questioned -- repeatedly -- the higher average damage on the token, and why it was higher than the then-current Sea Troll. I was told to stop asking question on the damage wheel; to stop asking questions on how Polymorph worked; and that the token would be balanced by class redesign. At the time, the statement was that Trinkets were to be a functional replacement for Polymorph potions and work the same way (except for not being turned in), so the assumption was the increased damage wheel would compensate for spending a Standard Action (as you would with a Polymorph potion) to activate the Trinket.

After token design, no progress was made on class redesign; and contrary to (at least my) expectation, the functional replacement of Polymorph potions did not work in the same way, but instead only required an Instant Action to activate -- making the increased damage wheel have no cost other than a sufficiently sized stack of Trinkets. And with the latest ruling, it's no longer limited to once per token per dungeon (as a Polymorph Potion would be), meaning just a single token is needed

And now, here we are.
Cleric main / Druid secondary
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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #45

We haven't gotten to class redesign yet. If you move Polymoph hit/damage to wis from strength for example you would see a pretty different class. Let's see what Jeff has in store when we get to April.

Trinkets are still being tinkered with and how they work with the new class design is unknown.

Lets also see if Oblivion Checks make it into Mythic, because right now it is hard to stack AC on a druid without equipping dex items. If you are subbing out damage items for dex it is also going to make polymorph builds less powerful.
Last edit: by OrionW.
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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #46

OrionW wrote: We haven't gotten to class redesign yet. If you move Polymoph hit/damage to wis from strength for example you would see a pretty different class. Let's see what Jeff has in store when we get to April.

Trinkets are still being tinkered with and how they work with the new class design is unknown.

Lets also see if Oblivion Checks make it into Mythic, because right now it is hard to stack AC on a druid without equipping dex items. If you are subbing out damage items for dex it is also going to make polymorph builds less powerful.


I don't understand the logic of letting the token be overpowered now with the class as it is currently designed using the logic that the Druid class might (maybe. perhaps. but probably not.) be changed in such a way that this token will be less useful in the future. That just makes zero sense to me.

It would make more sense to just put trinkets on pause until the class redesign happens. That or balance them based on how the class exists currently.
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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #47

I don't think the token is overpowered, but in part because I am viewing it from the lens of someone with a larger collection of tokens. The question is more how does it interact at the lower end of the token collecting spectrum, and I think there the damage vrs traditional weapons question is much more tied to class design.

My view is also colored, in my mind, by us never getting a UR polymorph potion to synergize with Iktomi's. My expectation is that we are unlikely to see a UR Trinket, but I hope I am wrong about that.

Also how the FAQ (which is a work in progress) lands is important. If folks have problems with the more permissive use of trinkets that is the better thread to be posting in. In 2023 when the first one was designed these were limited use tokens (1/game per token) which is pretty limiting to new players.

Edit: to put it another way should the Defender set lose Freedom of Movement, because Defender Platemail is so much better than Armor of the Berserker? No because class design and the overall token eco-system are important.
Last edit: by OrionW.
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2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 3 months 1 week ago #48

OrionW wrote: I don't think the token is overpowered, but in part because I am viewing it from the lens of someone with a larger collection of tokens. The question is more how does it interact at the lower end of the token collecting spectrum, and I think there the damage vrs traditional weapons question is much more tied to class design.

Under the most recent ruling, there's no limitation to Trinkets. It's effectively +3 damage (assuming 0 Focus and 4th level) on top of other Rare weapons, at the cost of having no innate to-hit (but inherits the to-hit bonus of the equipped weapon). It's effectively a slotless +3 Melee damage. How many tokens do that?

OrionW wrote: My view is also colored, in my mind, by us never getting a UR polymorph potion to synergize with Iktomi's. My expectation is that we are unlikely to see a UR Trinket, but I hope I am wrong about that.

There have been no UR Polymorph potions in the past, because nobody wants to spend a PYP in order to run a dungeon. If one were printed, the complaint would be "Why do I need to spend an additional $60 (or whatever a PYP auctions for nowadays) every time to run a dungeon, when the Barbarian just needs a one-time investment?" The last single-use UR, the Special , was printed in 2015.

Trollform was initially proposed (by Jeff) as a UR token. It was bumped down to Rare with the expectation of class card redesign, so that whatever shakes out could be more properly balanced. I have every confidence that a UR Trinket will be produced once the redesign is done -- I myself would push for one! But it should be well balanced; it should not be much stronger that existing weapons without any drawbacks.

OrionW wrote: Also how the FAQ (which is a work in progress) lands is important. If folks have problems with the more permissive use of trinkets that is the better thread to be posting in. In 2023 when the first one was designed these were limited use tokens (1/game per token) which is pretty limiting to new players.

1/game per token is no less restrictive than Polymorph potions: each of those were 1/game per token too, and then you lose then forever! So why are Trinkets higher damage wheel, not turned in, and not cost any Action to activate?

OrionW wrote: Edit: to put it another way should the Defender set lose Freedom of Movement, because Defender Platemail is so much better than Armor of the Berserker? No because class design and the overall token eco-system are important.

As you say: class design is important. Why should Druid have a token that does +3 damage over a Fighter or Barbarian, when the latter two's specialty is "do damage" and "do more damage"?
Cleric main / Druid secondary
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