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TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens

2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #61

  • Raven
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I try not to weigh in too heavily on Rogue tokens, because I *know* I'm biased... but I'd like to try to address the Nightshade Gloves from the perspective of a (Grind) DM.

I learned, this past GHC, just how powerful the Assassin's Crossbow was in the hands of a Legendary Necklace Rogue. (At least, for an in-person event; being able to slide a 17 or better is much easier in real life, than it is in VTD.) In the hands of an experienced slider, combined with a supportive party ("Guys, I'm just outside the 17... someone bump me in?") the odds of getting that Critical is better than 50/50. Sure, it's only for 2 attacks per combat, but Rogues who have their build min/maxed for it can do some *serious* damage. It doesn't add up to the damage output of a Legendary min/maxed Monk, but it's still very impressive.

In order to get that amazing effect, however, Rogues need to equip:
* Legendary Necklace
* Assassin's Crossbow
* A UR token which lets them Sneak at Range
* UR Bead (or bracers) of Guided Strike (because the build is useless if you can't crit for some reason)
* various damage boosters to increase Ranged damage, which isn't *quite* as easy as equipping Str for Melee damage

So, yeah... that Triple Damage on a Crit is *awesome* but it's not really the Assassin's Crossbow alone which is "broken" ... it's the synergy between the Crossbow and Raphiel's. Even then, it takes some specific tokens to make it work.

The Nightshade gloves' original intent (if I understand correctly) was to give Melee Rogues a nice token which could deal out some Spicy damage in the hands of a skilled Rogue, as an answer to the Assassin's Crossbow. I still like that as a goal!

My preference (both as a DM, and as a Melee Rogue myself) is to have something which works:
* In Melee
* Provides or Synergizes with an expanded Critical range,
* and gives 3x damage *ON SNEAK ATTACKS ONLY*

By having it work in melee only, we're dodging any questions about how it stacks with the Assassin's Crossbow, as well as providing an alternate route to get that 3x crit

By giving it, or letting it synergize with, an expanded Critical range, we're making it a desirable token.
The very first iterations were 3x crit "only on a Nat 20" and honestly, I can't see anyone picking them up over a dozen other gloves in that case. A 20 in VTD is extremely unlikely (less than 1/20 chance) so you can go 2 or 3 VTD games easily without this kicking in. Even in live TD, it's really rare to get that 20.
Opening the crit range to 19-20 is where the token becomes viable to me. As a player, I'd love it to be even higher than that, but as a DM, I think that 19-20 range keeps the power in check.
I could also see letting it synergize with a wider crit range (with Raphiels) but if that's the case, I'd like to add the text of "once/combat" as that would keep it from getting truly out of hand.

As for that triple-crit being on Sneak Attacks Only... I think that plays well into the Rogue Class power. Rogues are about setting up for that massive damage hit, not about being triple-crit power-houses (that's Fighter territory).

In a world where the Assassin's Crossbow already exists, I think the following would be a balanced, but desirable token:

Nightshades Grim Gloves
3x damage on a Critical
melee-based Sneak Attack
once/combat

I think they'd also be balanced as:

3x damage on a 19-20
melee-based Sneak Attack

or, if you aren't all about the Sneak Attack, it could even be balanced as

3x damage on a Critical
melee attack
once/combat


My apologies for much wordiness.
I'd love to see this token make it through development.
I'd also like to see it not create a bigger problem than the Assassin's Crossbow ; )
"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

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And the ever-useful Token DataBase , expertly maintained by Druegar.
Last edit: by Raven.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #62

Raven wrote: I try not to weigh in too heavily on Rogue tokens, because I *know* I'm biased... but I'd like to try to address the Nightshade Gloves from the perspective of a (Grind) DM.

I learned, this past GHC, just how powerful the Assassin's Crossbow was in the hands of a Legendary Necklace Rogue. (At least, for an in-person event; being able to slide a 17 or better is much easier in real life, than it is in VTD.) In the hands of an experienced slider, combined with a supportive party ("Guys, I'm just outside the 17... someone bump me in?") the odds of getting that Critical is better than 50/50. Sure, it's only for 2 attacks per combat, but Rogues who have their build min/maxed for it can do some *serious* damage. It doesn't add up to the damage output of a Legendary min/maxed Monk, but it's still very impressive.

In order to get that amazing effect, however, Rogues need to equip:
* Legendary Necklace
* Assassin's Crossbow
* A UR token which lets them Sneak at Range
* UR Bead (or bracers) of Guided Strike (because the build is useless if you can't crit for some reason)
* various damage boosters to increase Ranged damage, which isn't *quite* as easy as equipping Str for Melee damage

So, yeah... that Triple Damage on a Crit is *awesome* but it's not really the Assassin's Crossbow alone which is "broken" ... it's the synergy between the Crossbow and Raphiel's. Even then, it takes some specific tokens to make it work.

The Nightshade gloves' original intent (if I understand correctly) was to give Melee Rogues a nice token which could deal out some Spicy damage in the hands of a skilled Rogue, as an answer to the Assassin's Crossbow. I still like that as a goal!

My preference (both as a DM, and as a Melee Rogue myself) is to have something which works:
* In Melee
* Provides or Synergizes with an expanded Critical range,
* and gives 3x damage *ON SNEAK ATTACKS ONLY*

By having it work in melee only, we're dodging any questions about how it stacks with the Assassin's Crossbow, as well as providing an alternate route to get that 3x crit

By giving it, or letting it synergize with, an expanded Critical range, we're making it a desirable token.
The very first iterations were 3x crit "only on a Nat 20" and honestly, I can't see anyone picking them up over a dozen other gloves in that case. A 20 in VTD is extremely unlikely (less than 1/20 chance) so you can go 2 or 3 VTD games easily without this kicking in. Even in live TD, it's really rare to get that 20.
Opening the crit range to 19-20 is where the token becomes viable to me. As a player, I'd love it to be even higher than that, but as a DM, I think that 19-20 range keeps the power in check.
I could also see letting it synergize with a wider crit range (with Raphiels) but if that's the case, I'd like to add the text of "once/combat" as that would keep it from getting truly out of hand.

As for that triple-crit being on Sneak Attacks Only... I think that plays well into the Rogue Class power. Rogues are about setting up for that massive damage hit, not about being triple-crit power-houses (that's Fighter territory).

In a world where the Assassin's Crossbow already exists, I think the following would be a balanced, but desirable token:

Nightshades Grim Gloves
3x damage on a Critical
melee-based Sneak Attack
once/combat

I think they'd also be balanced as:

3x damage on a 19-20
melee-based Sneak Attack

or, if you aren't all about the Sneak Attack, it could even be balanced as

3x damage on a Critical
melee attack
once/combat


My apologies for much wordiness.
I'd love to see this token make it through development.
I'd also like to see it not create a bigger problem than the Assassin's Crossbow ; )


Sure, sure... but more importantly... shouldn't the gloves be blue?
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #63

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Beertram wrote:

Raven wrote: I try not to weigh in too heavily on Rogue tokens, because I *know* I'm biased... but I'd like to try to address the Nightshade Gloves from the perspective of a (Grind) DM.

I learned, this past GHC, just how powerful the Assassin's Crossbow was in the hands of a Legendary Necklace Rogue. (At least, for an in-person event; being able to slide a 17 or better is much easier in real life, than it is in VTD.) In the hands of an experienced slider, combined with a supportive party ("Guys, I'm just outside the 17... someone bump me in?") the odds of getting that Critical is better than 50/50. Sure, it's only for 2 attacks per combat, but Rogues who have their build min/maxed for it can do some *serious* damage. It doesn't add up to the damage output of a Legendary min/maxed Monk, but it's still very impressive.

In order to get that amazing effect, however, Rogues need to equip:
* Legendary Necklace
* Assassin's Crossbow
* A UR token which lets them Sneak at Range
* UR Bead (or bracers) of Guided Strike (because the build is useless if you can't crit for some reason)
* various damage boosters to increase Ranged damage, which isn't *quite* as easy as equipping Str for Melee damage

So, yeah... that Triple Damage on a Crit is *awesome* but it's not really the Assassin's Crossbow alone which is "broken" ... it's the synergy between the Crossbow and Raphiel's. Even then, it takes some specific tokens to make it work.

The Nightshade gloves' original intent (if I understand correctly) was to give Melee Rogues a nice token which could deal out some Spicy damage in the hands of a skilled Rogue, as an answer to the Assassin's Crossbow. I still like that as a goal!

My preference (both as a DM, and as a Melee Rogue myself) is to have something which works:
* In Melee
* Provides or Synergizes with an expanded Critical range,
* and gives 3x damage *ON SNEAK ATTACKS ONLY*

By having it work in melee only, we're dodging any questions about how it stacks with the Assassin's Crossbow, as well as providing an alternate route to get that 3x crit

By giving it, or letting it synergize with, an expanded Critical range, we're making it a desirable token.
The very first iterations were 3x crit "only on a Nat 20" and honestly, I can't see anyone picking them up over a dozen other gloves in that case. A 20 in VTD is extremely unlikely (less than 1/20 chance) so you can go 2 or 3 VTD games easily without this kicking in. Even in live TD, it's really rare to get that 20.
Opening the crit range to 19-20 is where the token becomes viable to me. As a player, I'd love it to be even higher than that, but as a DM, I think that 19-20 range keeps the power in check.
I could also see letting it synergize with a wider crit range (with Raphiels) but if that's the case, I'd like to add the text of "once/combat" as that would keep it from getting truly out of hand.

As for that triple-crit being on Sneak Attacks Only... I think that plays well into the Rogue Class power. Rogues are about setting up for that massive damage hit, not about being triple-crit power-houses (that's Fighter territory).

In a world where the Assassin's Crossbow already exists, I think the following would be a balanced, but desirable token:

Nightshades Grim Gloves
3x damage on a Critical
melee-based Sneak Attack
once/combat

I think they'd also be balanced as:

3x damage on a 19-20
melee-based Sneak Attack

or, if you aren't all about the Sneak Attack, it could even be balanced as

3x damage on a Critical
melee attack
once/combat


My apologies for much wordiness.
I'd love to see this token make it through development.
I'd also like to see it not create a bigger problem than the Assassin's Crossbow ; )


Sure, sure... but more importantly... shouldn't the gloves be blue?


I can get behind everything Raven said so +1
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

Sartre sits in in a coffee shop and asks for a coffee without cream. The barista apologizes “Sorry, we don't have any cream. Can I offer you a coffee without milk instead?”
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #64

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Quick random crazy idea for charm of the hedgehog (which I love btw).

What would people think of changing the 10 charm synergy to read "10+ = Ret v. Range", so basically in a full hedgehog run where everyone has the charm/has agreed to the hedgehog concept, ret could also apply to ranged and make a lot of the room a little more possible.
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

Sartre sits in in a coffee shop and asks for a coffee without cream. The barista apologizes “Sorry, we don't have any cream. Can I offer you a coffee without milk instead?”
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #65

Charm of Critical Taunts: The apps don't know when taunt is used or when it is viable (creatures that do AoE damage). Not sure how the crit range is supposed to be coded? It only applies for 1 round, but the app can't track when.

Thor's Mug of Melee: May want to add Monk to the classes that cannot use this, because Monks have to have weapons, or unarmed in both hands.

Bead of Celicia: Similar, but much more powerful than Ring of Expertise, Mage Power: Conserve, and Medallion of Magick. Not a problem, just seems a bit over powered compared to the rest, and I assume this all stacks.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #66

Cranston wrote: Charm of Critical Taunts: The apps don't know when taunt is used or when it is viable (creatures that do AoE damage). Not sure how the crit range is supposed to be coded? It only applies for 1 round, but the app can't track when.


App - no idea.

Website - Add taunting as condition in client and expand attack roll json to send a isTaunting flag and a list of crit range & multipliers?
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #67

Cranston wrote:
Thor's Mug of Melee: May want to add Monk to the classes that cannot use this, because Monks have to have weapons, or unarmed in both hands.
.


No they don’t?

There are plenty of one handed melee weapons usable by monks that are not FoB compatible - such as Thors’s +5 hammer, Stu’s +3 Handy Stein etc.

And they can use the existing Brawler’s Mug, that is the same effect but +2 damage.

Finally, I don’t think there is any rule preventing a monk from using a FoB weapon in one hand and an unarmed strike in the other hand and sending two pucks. Is there?
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #68

Impy wrote:

Exbalz wrote: Belt of the Hunter: This is of course a comparable level to the Deadshot Belt (+2 damage, +1-2 hit, +1-2 AC and +1-2 REF saves vs +3 damage +2 hit for Deadshot and part of a set). However, I would just ask that you keep in mind the proposed changes to DEX for character redesign, as an additional +1-2 damage would take this belt to a tier higher than Deadshot Belt.

Here's a thought experiment given that the last I heard the bead cap was 8 and the transmute only gets players up to 7, what if the belt was +2 DEX, +1 Bead?

I think I just heard Endgame's keyboard explode...


We already have another bead expander coming via safeholds follower Dragonkin, so I really don't think we need this belt to be one.


I’m not saying that this belt has to be a bead expander, in fact I led with the words “thought experiment” but using the reasoning that “everyone is getting the legendary and the safehold and the dragonkin therefore no one else needs access to a bead expander anywhere else” isn’t exactly the best way to open the game to players at all spend levels.

We spend so much development time concentrating on the pack rare player and the unlimited budget player that we don’t acknowledge the “buys a couple UR’s/year” player even exists. And I say that as someone who spends much closer to the “unlimited budget” side of the equation.

Why have a slot limit if we only ever print just enough tokens to hit exactly that limit?
Last edit: by Exbalz.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #69

Exbalz wrote:

Impy wrote:

Exbalz wrote: Belt of the Hunter: This is of course a comparable level to the Deadshot Belt (+2 damage, +1-2 hit, +1-2 AC and +1-2 REF saves vs +3 damage +2 hit for Deadshot and part of a set). However, I would just ask that you keep in mind the proposed changes to DEX for character redesign, as an additional +1-2 damage would take this belt to a tier higher than Deadshot Belt.

Here's a thought experiment given that the last I heard the bead cap was 8 and the transmute only gets players up to 7, what if the belt was +2 DEX, +1 Bead?

I think I just heard Endgame's keyboard explode...


We already have another bead expander coming via safeholds follower Dragonkin, so I really don't think we need this belt to be one.


I’m not saying that this belt has to be a bead expander, in fact I led with the words “thought experiment” but using the reasoning that “everyone is getting the legendary and the safehold and the dragonkin therefore no one else needs access to a bead expander anywhere else” isn’t exactly the best way to open the game to players at all spend levels.

We spend so much development time concentrating on the pack rare player and the unlimited budget player that we don’t acknowledge the “buys a couple UR’s/year” player even exists. And I say that as someone who spends much closer to the “unlimited budget” side of the equation.

Why have a slot limit if we only ever print just enough tokens to hit exactly that limit?


Those other players can get the UR bracers to expand their beads?

I’m sure we’ll see a bead expander in the ear slot in the next 5 years.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #70

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Cranston wrote: Charm of Critical Taunts: The apps don't know when taunt is used or when it is viable (creatures that do AoE damage). Not sure how the crit range is supposed to be coded? It only applies for 1 round, but the app can't track when.

Thor's Mug of Melee: May want to add Monk to the classes that cannot use this, because Monks have to have weapons, or unarmed in both hands.

Bead of Celicia: Similar, but much more powerful than Ring of Expertise, Mage Power: Conserve, and Medallion of Magick. Not a problem, just seems a bit over powered compared to the rest, and I assume this all stacks.


Would applying crit extension as a potion effect or something similar work?

I see in your app you do that with rogue flanking which is a one turn effect, perhaps the same backend can be used for this?
Last edit: by Impy.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #71

Not sure if this is intentional, but previously all Cabal items are limited to:

"Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, Wizard"

Phil
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #72

Death Knight Helm

I am a little worried about Monks and melee weapon Rangers being left off this helm. Is the plan to have another melee helm of similar power in the next few years? The more I think about this I am not sure the Death Knight set is the right place to have a class restricted relic level helm at the UR level, even if Cranston's is at this power level. This leaves just a handful of damage dealing classes without a competitive helm.

tokendb.com/?fwp_usable_by=monk&fwp_slot=head&fwp_rare_box=ultra-rare
tokendb.com/?fwp_usable_by=ranger&fwp_slot=head&fwp_rare_box=ultra-rare
Last edit: by OrionW.
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