TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens

Picc's Grindstone:

I agree with the rest of the comments that this should be a runestone slot. I liked how that originally worked (reusable). Also, as someone who isn't doing a ton of damage, I really like that this switched to a damage modifier!

Thor's Mug of Melee:

Makes sense that rangers can't use it, but what about monks? Seems like they wouldn't be able to, either, or wouldn't want to, unless it can be used as a FOB? Then it would be pretty (over) powerful for a monk. Unless I'm missing something?

Love everything else as is. Thank you for letting us provide input!!

Angroch wrote: Picc's Grindstone:

I agree with the rest of the comments that this should be a runestone slot. I liked how that originally worked (reusable). Also, as someone who isn't doing a ton of damage, I really like that this switched to a damage modifier!

Thor's Mug of Melee:

Makes sense that rangers can't use it, but what about monks? Seems like they wouldn't be able to, either, or wouldn't want to, unless it can be used as a FOB? Then it would be pretty (over) powerful for a monk. Unless I'm missing something?

Love everything else as is. Thank you for letting us provide input!!

Monks would choose not to FOB since the mug is not a weapon.

Angroch wrote:
Thor's Mug of Melee:

Makes sense that rangers can't use it, but what about monks? Seems like they wouldn't be able to, either, or wouldn't want to, unless it can be used as a FOB? Then it would be pretty (over) powerful for a monk. Unless I'm missing something?

Monks are not obligate melee dual wielders (Rangers are).

Monks can use some two handed melee weapons, and can use one handed melee weapons and not use Flurry of Blows (because the one handed weapons disallows it, or because they choose not to).

Thus Monks can use off-hand, non weapon melee boosters that Rangers can't such as the Brawler's Mug ( tokendb.com/token/brawlers-mug-rare/ ).

Note: Thor's Mug of Melee isn't FoB compatible, because it's not a weapon, and therefore Monks can't slide this in their off-hand when making a melee attack.

Nice to see the change with Nightshades Grim Gloves. Feels like suitable Roguey bursty damage and a counter to Coin of Temptation's making the Rogue class less necessary.

(I guess folks constantly hit crits on sneak attacks rounds more than I do... I'd be passing on a UR that only activates on a 20 on a sneak attack.)

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Angroch wrote:
Thor's Mug of Melee:

Makes sense that rangers can't use it, but what about monks? Seems like they wouldn't be able to, either, or wouldn't want to, unless it can be used as a FOB? Then it would be pretty (over) powerful for a monk. Unless I'm missing something?

Monks are not obligate melee dual wielders (Rangers are).

Monks can use some two handed melee weapons, and can use one handed melee weapons and not use Flurry of Blows (because the one handed weapons disallows it, or because they choose not to).

Thus Monks can use off-hand, non weapon melee boosters that Rangers can't such as the Brawler's Mug ( tokendb.com/token/brawlers-mug-rare/ ).

Note: Thor's Mug of Melee isn't FoB compatible, because it's not a weapon, and therefore Monks can't slide this in their off-hand when making a melee attack.

Rangers don't have to be dual wielders... a new Player may not have any rogue-compatible weapons to wield in offhand, and a veteran melee Ranger is unlikely to choose this over a weapon that has higher potential damage output, but if this is all a player has... It would be their choice to make if it were not restricted. Since a Ranger wielding this would only benefit from one hand of damage enhancement like any other class... it makes little sense to prevent them that choice by restricting this. Even if it were an offhand weapon... they lose anywhere from 1to5 to hit depending on what they swapped out for this... If they can't hit as often they do less damage anyway. The danger I suppose would be potential +8 damage on two hands if it were a weapon, but then both strikes loose hit value and again... less hitting means less damage overall
I disagree with any class restrictions on this... let the Wizards drink and fight too.

Bead Bracelets: I touched on this in the Transmuted 2025 thread and think that 2 for an UR expander is good. Not crazy high and enough that it should draw some good PYPs from it.

Bead of Celecia: Absolutely LOVE the artwork on this bead. Probably one of my favorites. I like the update of 1/game.

Charm of the Hedgehog: Another one of my favorites for Artwork if not probably my favorite and im not apart of the order....yet

Charm of Critical Taunts: Love this one too but am a bit confused by the Crit range. Kilgores has 18-20 so this Crit would work during taunt as well so im not sure how this would be different. I have seen a few posts that it works differently with a 5th lvl player ability so I think they like it.

Death Knight Helm: Love this one as well. I like this set and think that the + STR is a good move as it is a part of every other token from this set.

Nightshades Grim Gloves: I am not sure if this one is good or bad based on some comments from the Rouge community. I think it should be restricted to melee sneak attacks so it gives the rouges to do melee or ranged crit sneak crits but not a x3 for every crit thought the combat. But this is just a thought of how others have explained and I agree with the fact that x3 for every crit may be a bit overpowered. I will however differ to those who know more about the effects of this outside sneak attacks as well as the Rouge community. If it stands I do agree with some of the others. as more time passes it will need to be reprinted same as the +2 Assassins Crossbow since the desire for these are massive and the last Crossbow I saw sold for $600 ( not sure if this was an ONYX version or not )

Picc's Grindstone: I do like the change to spotless and like the name a good UR

Thor's Mug of Melee: I think since this one is one that cant be changed easily and some of the other off hand items, the buff is one that fits well.

Shield of Guarding: I am not as much of a fan of this one. I think the ability is an okay one, but I liked the original one where it interacted with missiles. The way it is now, I would keep my Giln's. I would loose the ability of the UR Shield, but with a higher AC it would help keep both myself and guarded targets from getting hit at all. Outside AoE attacks I think higher AC vs this shields ability, higher AC is better. I am not sure if other Paladins would feel the same as I do though.

Shield Maiden Bracers: I think this will be a good one for Barbarians who use the Deathcleaver as well as the Fighters.

Runestone Fitting Base: I don't see this one as needed for 2025. The main reason it was requested was IF it was apart of a transmute path or if it was something that was going to allow UR Runestone to be used in it. As Picc's Grindstone stands, and the communities current supply of the fitting bases... I do not think this one will be ordered outside collectors or those who want to collect the runestones and use them for there weapons, but I have not see this as something heavy desired. I have had some in my shop for near 2 year and still have them. II have seen them sell as low as $50 - $70 for 2010 version, which I would think would be one of the higher priced versions of this UR. I do love this artwork the best of all 3 runs if you do run this as a PYP for 2025. I would suggest leaving Picc's Grindstone as it is and put a different PYP as the 20 for 2025.

FAQ entry request for Nightshade's Grim Gloves:

For Sneak Attack, the SA damage bonus of +15 at level 4, and +20 at level 5, is not multiplied when a critical hit happens.

There are a few exceptions:

a. Nightshade's +2 Short Sword and Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger both state: " If a rogue making a sneak attack scores a critical hit while wielding Nightshade’s +2 Sword/Dagger, all damage is doubled, including the sneak attack bonus. When using most other weapons, sneak attack damage is not doubled on a crit."

b. The Viper Strike Set bonus when at least 3 pieces are granted includes: When making a sneak attack with a Viper Strike weapon, the bonus damage from the sneak attack (+15 if the rogue is 4th level or +20 if the rogue is 5th level) is doubled if a critical hit is scored. Under normal circumstances, only the non-bonus damage from a sneak attack is doubled on a crit.

FAQ requested clarifications:

1. What happens if a Rogue is using both Nightshade's Grim Gauntlets, and one of Nightshade's +2 weapons, and scores a sneak attack critical hit:

3x non-sneak damage + 1x sneak modifier
3x non-sneak damage + 2x sneak modifier
3x all damage
Something else?

2. Same question, but for the Viper Strike Set.

I expect the answer to be the same, but the wording of the Sneak Attack critical effects is slightly different between Nightshade's Weapons and the Viper Strike Set so I suppose they could behave differently.

Dougout wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Angroch wrote:
Thor's Mug of Melee:

Makes sense that rangers can't use it, but what about monks? Seems like they wouldn't be able to, either, or wouldn't want to, unless it can be used as a FOB? Then it would be pretty (over) powerful for a monk. Unless I'm missing something?

Monks are not obligate melee dual wielders (Rangers are).

Monks can use some two handed melee weapons, and can use one handed melee weapons and not use Flurry of Blows (because the one handed weapons disallows it, or because they choose not to).

Thus Monks can use off-hand, non weapon melee boosters that Rangers can't such as the Brawler's Mug ( tokendb.com/token/brawlers-mug-rare/ ).

Note: Thor's Mug of Melee isn't FoB compatible, because it's not a weapon, and therefore Monks can't slide this in their off-hand when making a melee attack.

Rangers don't have to be dual wielders..

This is false, although I used to think this as well.

From the Players Handbook, page 24-25:

---

"Dual-Wielding Melee Fighting Style

Players choosing the ranger practices a special double
weapon slide representing the ranger’s two weapon
melee attack. Both pucks are slid at the same time,
one in each hand. (Players who are unable to use both
hands may slide both pucks in the same hand, but
they must be slid at the same time.)

During the adventure, if for any reason a ranger loses
one of their melee weapons and doesn’t have access
to a suitable back-up, the ranger may attack with one
weapon, but must still slide two pucks—one of which
is empty. The empty puck cannot deal damage. The
empty puck slide is not considered an attack and does
not trigger things that are triggered by attacks. It can,
and is very likely to, bump other pucks.

Note: Ranger players use one weapon puck when
making ranged attacks.

Ranger Melee Weapon Requirements

A ranger’s main-hand weapon can be any melee
weapon a ranger can use. However, a ranger’s offhand melee weapon must be usable by both ranger
and rogue.

During coaching, if you don’t have a second melee
weapon that fits this criterion, notify your coach so
they can get one for you. "

---

In summary: Rangers melee using both hands of the character is a "must" ability, not a "may" ability - they must equip two weapons in coaching, and must always slide two pucks, even if game scenarios have caused them to lose a weapon.

Matthew Hayward wrote: FAQ entry request for Nightshade's Grim Gloves:

For Sneak Attack, the SA damage bonus of +15 at level 4, and +20 at level 5, is not multiplied when a critical hit happens.

There are a few exceptions:

a. Nightshade's +2 Short Sword and Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger both state: " If a rogue making a sneak attack scores a critical hit while wielding Nightshade’s +2 Sword/Dagger, all damage is doubled, including the sneak attack bonus. When using most other weapons, sneak attack damage is not doubled on a crit."

b. The Viper Strike Set bonus when at least 3 pieces are granted includes: When making a sneak attack with a Viper Strike weapon, the bonus damage from the sneak attack (+15 if the rogue is 4th level or +20 if the rogue is 5th level) is doubled if a critical hit is scored. Under normal circumstances, only the non-bonus damage from a sneak attack is doubled on a crit.

FAQ requested clarifications:

1. What happens if a Rogue is using both Nightshade's Grim Gauntlets, and one of Nightshade's +2 weapons, and scores a sneak attack critical hit:

3x non-sneak damage + 1x sneak modifier
3x non-sneak damage + 2x sneak modifier
3x all damage
Something else?

2. Same question, but for the Viper Strike Set.

I expect the answer to be the same, but the wording of the Sneak Attack critical effects is slightly different between Nightshade's Weapons and the Viper Strike Set so I suppose they could behave differently.

As currently written.... Gloves + Short Sword:

• Sneak Crit No Dagger Symbol: 3x Attack Damage + 2x Sneak Damage
• Sneak Crit w Dagger Symbol: 3x Attack Damage + 2x Sneak Damage + 20 for Dagger Symbol

Gloves + Viper Strike Set:

• Sneak Crit: 3x Attack Damage + 2x Sneak Damage

Dougout wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: FAQ entry request for Nightshade's Grim Gloves:

For Sneak Attack, the SA damage bonus of +15 at level 4, and +20 at level 5, is not multiplied when a critical hit happens.

There are a few exceptions:

a. Nightshade's +2 Short Sword and Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger both state: " If a rogue making a sneak attack scores a critical hit while wielding Nightshade’s +2 Sword/Dagger, all damage is doubled, including the sneak attack bonus. When using most other weapons, sneak attack damage is not doubled on a crit."

b. The Viper Strike Set bonus when at least 3 pieces are granted includes: When making a sneak attack with a Viper Strike weapon, the bonus damage from the sneak attack (+15 if the rogue is 4th level or +20 if the rogue is 5th level) is doubled if a critical hit is scored. Under normal circumstances, only the non-bonus damage from a sneak attack is doubled on a crit.

FAQ requested clarifications:

1. What happens if a Rogue is using both Nightshade's Grim Gauntlets, and one of Nightshade's +2 weapons, and scores a sneak attack critical hit:

3x non-sneak damage + 1x sneak modifier
3x non-sneak damage + 2x sneak modifier
3x all damage
Something else?

2. Same question, but for the Viper Strike Set.

I expect the answer to be the same, but the wording of the Sneak Attack critical effects is slightly different between Nightshade's Weapons and the Viper Strike Set so I suppose they could behave differently.

You missed the part in Nightshade's where it only doubles the sneak on the Dagger Symbol...
Gloves + Short Sword:

• Sneak Crit No Dagger Symbol: 3x Attack Damage + 1x Sneak Damage
• Sneak Crit w Dagger Symbol: 3x Attack Damage + 2x Sneak Damage

That is false, as can be seen from the tokendb entry.

The dagger symbol grants a bonus to sneak attack damage of +10 when used in sneak attack, regardless of whether a critical hit is scored or not (and counts as an 8 otherwise).

The doubling of the damage on sneak attack does not depend on the symbol at all.

Directly from tokenDB for tokendb.com/token/nightshades-2-short-sword/

"Note: If a rogue making a sneak attack scores a critical hit while wielding Nightshade’s +2 Short Sword, all damage is doubled, including the sneak attack bonus. When using most other weapons, sneak attack damage is not doubled on a crit."

There is no restriction on the damage spot used for triggering this ability - it only depends on whether a sneak attack critical hit has been made.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Dougout wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: FAQ entry request for Nightshade's Grim Gloves:

For Sneak Attack, the SA damage bonus of +15 at level 4, and +20 at level 5, is not multiplied when a critical hit happens.

There are a few exceptions:

a. Nightshade's +2 Short Sword and Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger both state: " If a rogue making a sneak attack scores a critical hit while wielding Nightshade’s +2 Sword/Dagger, all damage is doubled, including the sneak attack bonus. When using most other weapons, sneak attack damage is not doubled on a crit."

b. The Viper Strike Set bonus when at least 3 pieces are granted includes: When making a sneak attack with a Viper Strike weapon, the bonus damage from the sneak attack (+15 if the rogue is 4th level or +20 if the rogue is 5th level) is doubled if a critical hit is scored. Under normal circumstances, only the non-bonus damage from a sneak attack is doubled on a crit.

FAQ requested clarifications:

1. What happens if a Rogue is using both Nightshade's Grim Gauntlets, and one of Nightshade's +2 weapons, and scores a sneak attack critical hit:

3x non-sneak damage + 1x sneak modifier
3x non-sneak damage + 2x sneak modifier
3x all damage
Something else?

2. Same question, but for the Viper Strike Set.

I expect the answer to be the same, but the wording of the Sneak Attack critical effects is slightly different between Nightshade's Weapons and the Viper Strike Set so I suppose they could behave differently.

You missed the part in Nightshade's where it only doubles the sneak on the Dagger Symbol...
Gloves + Short Sword:

• Sneak Crit No Dagger Symbol: 3x Attack Damage + 1x Sneak Damage
• Sneak Crit w Dagger Symbol: 3x Attack Damage + 2x Sneak Damage

That is false, as can be seen from the tokendb entry.

The dagger symbol grants a bonus to sneak attack damage of +10 when used in sneak attack, regardless of whether a critical hit is scored or not (and counts as an 8 otherwise).

The doubling of the damage on sneak attack does not depend on the symbol at all.

Directly from tokenDB for tokendb.com/token/nightshades-2-short-sword/

"Note: If a rogue making a sneak attack scores a critical hit while wielding Nightshade’s +2 Short Sword, all damage is doubled, including the sneak attack bonus. When using most other weapons, sneak attack damage is not doubled on a crit."

There is no restriction on the damage spot used for triggering this ability - it only depends on whether a sneak attack critical hit has been made.

You're right. I misread it and updated my post... it's been a while since I used it and don't see it as often in play these days. Either way... The Gloves don't modify Sneak damage.. only the Attack Damage. The Viper Set and the Sword and Daggers modify the sneak. I could be wrong.

I think I figured out one of the things bugging me with the holy symbol - it seems to be giving everything to one symbol so that another doesn’t have to be made for a very long time. That’s a bummer because I’d like to be able to theme my holy symbol to my build, and if we don’t get anymore that can’t happen. For example:

Holy symbol of Pelor? I’m going full plate and smiting evil with a hammer (or baton I guess)

Holy Symbol of Selinwa? If it’s a healing holy symbol, i go robes of healing and a heavy healing build.

Holy symbol of Thor that boosts spiritual hammer? Better bet I’m equipping Thors hammer and charm of spell storing for all the hammers.

Holy symbol of Takhisis? Don’t Even care what it does, I’m wearing all the death knight gear.