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TOPIC: 2025 Transmuted Tokens

2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 4 weeks ago #37

Matthew Hayward wrote:

edwin wrote: Prefer a legendary path for Orions Belt to give 6 slots between ioun stones, charms and beads subject to individual caps


That's an interesting idea. Probably would need an alternative recipe for Orion's Belt.


Alternate could be relic bracelet being proposed for 2025 as a replacement for the fragments and specific monster bits.
Last edit: by edwin.
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 4 weeks ago #38

Thoughts on the Legendary Ioun Stone - have it at -10 darkrift, -5 cold and -5 fire along with +3 saves. Make the relic a subset of this so it sits between UR and Legendary.
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 4 weeks ago #39

payden wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:
You also have to keep in mind how good
Widseths maybe, though I'd put Ashennes,Vivs, Benrows, Bogs, and Raphaels's ahead of it. Not in that order.

Ralsons, bogs, and Druegars are all also ahead of Ava's

I like Iktomi's, but even I have to agree it is the one legendary behind Ava's

I'm genuinely surprised to hear anyone thinks Avas is OP.


I main Wizard/Elf wizard and really wasn't very happy with the legendary but I do see how people could think that it's good. If the bead necklace was still a thing I would drop it though.

I'm my thoughts of Ava's being one of the best weapons

- +5 weapon
- solid damage wheel at 10 average base damage
- has an insta kill on a enemy type that until recently we saw an awful lot of
- can use grace twice a game which I think is a great ability that can cancel a team wipe, insta kill or just a bunch of damage.
- one handed so you can get bonuses from shields
- gives the class specific neck ur ability baked In so you essentially get two neck slots
- No opinion on LoH, better than nothing but not great

My opinions are often though


When compared to current Rare Swords' Damage output considering it's a +5, it is lacking in that department. The support help makes up for it in group settings, but Paladin's are still weak on offense, which is where most people see numbers that directly compare them with others in the group during battles... it can be disheartening when they are missing a lot or unable to deal comparable damage if they do hit in combat so they are expected to just sit back and take guard hits for glass cannons.... everyone has a role, but it's nice to feel useful outside of that role too.
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Last edit: by Dougout.
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #40

Bead bracelets:
I still believe that beads are more powerful than charms - if it would be useful we can break the charm vs bead discussion into a separate thread. I'd consider dropping to 2 beads for relic and 3 beads for legendary, but this feels like an improvement over the necklace.

Eye Patches
No Complaints, noble leader (/civ 2 reference)

Trilliants
I still think that -10 is too much. Maybe -5 and extra +1 saves? I'd also vote for trying not to overlap SRoEC.

Bifrost Charm
+3 damage is sufficient here I think. Save +4 damage for a legendary charm.

Also note that +4 damage is relic ring power, and that makes you choose between ranged or melee, this does both.

Bead of Asguard
Feels appropriate compared to stalker beads, but +4 to an attribute is still quite a bit when combined with other beads.

Ring of the Dire Ram
Still feels weak for a 4* ring, and I'm not sure there is a great path forward where this lands in the right spot. Perhaps change this to a transmuted shirt based on the rare Shirt of Humble Luck as suggested by Matthew Hayward?
Last edit: by Endgame.
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #41

Endgame wrote: Bifrost Charm
+3 damage is sufficient here I think. Save +4 damage for a legendary charm.
Also note that +4 damage is relic ring power, and that makes you choose between ranged or melee, this does both.

I think the 2/19 version of the charm is choose like the rings of Havoc.
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #42

Michael wrote:

Endgame wrote: Bifrost Charm
+3 damage is sufficient here I think. Save +4 damage for a legendary charm.
Also note that +4 damage is relic ring power, and that makes you choose between ranged or melee, this does both.

I think the 2/19 version of the charm is choose like the rings of Havoc.


Good point - I apparently stopped reading at +4 damage.

I still think +3 damage would be appropriate though.
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #43

Ian Lee wrote: There are 37 legendaries. Class with fewest options, at 17, is monk. Bard is tied at 18 with rogue and wizards. Paladin has third most options behind fighters.

Bard has a signature neck item in Songbird, though a rare being signature is odd.

Paladin has more coherent signature neck item of Amulet of Guarding, which was a topic of conversation when paladin got Ava's. Transmute path for Amulet of Guarding someday is easy enough to design with getting the Guard vs missile, Guard vs spells, or whatever protective specials like giving everyone bonus AC, giving paladin immunity to petrification/poison, etc. There are always possibilities for putting abilities on different tokens.


We’re not comparing all Legendarys, we are talking about those a single or dual class use. In this case the big argument was that the bead expander should be moved because it conflicted with the class legendaries and found it at 5 too much, at 4 equal. But because it was conflicting with the class necklaces it was moved and reduced.

I understand why you want it the way you do, I just don’t agree with it. I respect your point but I don’t see it the same way. It was in a spot that was too contested because of the class legendarys. Because of that it was moved. This mean the neck slot is a slot that won’t be contested with expanders because of the class legendarys in its slot. In that slot, 10 of the 12 classes have represented class legendarys. I know not all classes will be the same. But If it a safe spot then why would I not want one for the 2 classes not in that slot? It’s a spot that isn’t going to get slot expanders push on it due to 10/12 classes have special legendarys on it. Amulet of guarding can’t compete. Not even close. I agree it leaves paths for the future and that’s great, but everyone wants the expanders to be in slots that aren’t expanded themselves and are highly contested. Making using the expanders a trade off.

Like I said, I see your point and I’m not saying give those classes necks now, or that it has to happen. This is just how I feel about it. There are so many great ideas and I see just as many who want it in the neck as a different slot. Everyone is trying to put fourth a good point as to why they should be one way or another. I’m not looking to cut anyone down.
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #44

To be clear, I didn't want the slot expander transmute path moved to wrist.

I want it gone. Slot expanders shouldn't have transmute paths. Charm bracelet path broke that slot.

Can keep IS and Eyepatch legendary paths and just not have three planned legendaries for 2025. End up with the treasure box third.

Putting some broken tokens in neck doesn't fix paladin. Paladin should have some class card changes. As for making fighters and paladin more offensive, well, that involves a more holistic view of the game. Or, maybe the game shouldn't just keep trying to up classes' damage outputs and put more value on other abilities, like putting more value on AC.

None of bard, druid, nor melee ranger need to be more powerful in the game relative to other classes.

With the class necks all being overpowered, making new neck tokens that are comparably overpowered doesn't seem like a great design goal. But, sure, at some point, going to run out of slots to stick top end tokens and eventually there will be fights in those slots. If this bead expander goes through, then we see the first massive slot fight.
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #45

Ian Lee wrote: To be clear, I didn't want the slot expander transmute path moved to wrist.

I want it gone. Slot expanders shouldn't have transmute paths. Charm bracelet path broke that slot.

Can keep IS and Eyepatch legendary paths and just not have three planned legendaries for 2025. End up with the treasure box third.

Putting some broken tokens in neck doesn't fix paladin. Paladin should have some class card changes. As for making fighters and paladin more offensive, well, that involves a more holistic view of the game. Or, maybe the game shouldn't just keep trying to up classes' damage outputs and put more value on other abilities, like putting more value on AC.

None of bard, druid, nor melee ranger need to be more powerful in the game relative to other classes.

With the class necks all being overpowered, making new neck tokens that are comparably overpowered doesn't seem like a great design goal. But, sure, at some point, going to run out of slots to stick top end tokens and eventually there will be fights in those slots. If this bead expander goes through, then we see the first massive slot fight.

I understand what you mean. I’m not trying to make Paladins like that. I play a few different classes but I guess my love and passion for them can get me a tad competitive. At this point I’d much rather wait one more year and try to figure a better solution out, but I think Jeff is really trying to give those who can’t, aren’t, waiting or wont do the Totem of Avarice, a way to still do TE beads and other beads.
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #46

Re IS Sunstone Trilliant... I'll try one more different way of making this case.

Choose Your Own Adventure

Suppose the legendary trilliant at -10 exists. You're designing a combat room in which it makes sense for a monster to deal Fire damage to the whole party. How much damage do you have it deal?

A) 10 Fire, because a priori that seems like a reasonable number in context.

When you turn to page 42, people with the trilliant literally laugh it off; everyone else takes reasonable damage. Player opinions about the room vary widely as a result.

B) 20 Fire, because we don't want people with trilliants laughing it off entirely, especially since it seems like half the players these days are running around with trilliants.

When you turn to page 69, people with trilliant are happy they wore it and say "ow", but everyone else says "OUCH holy $#!+ this dungeon is way overtuned, TD is such a pay to win game, etc etc"

C) 10 irresistible/Eldritch "fire", because the other two choices are both lousy now that the world is full of OP trilliants.

When you turn to page 394, absolutely everybody is unhappy. People with trilliants feel they wasted money/resources building a trilliant, because what's the point if it never does anything; people without trilliants are sad that their Flameguard Greaves don't help prevent a little bit of it even though they guessed right about the dungeon having fire.



My point is not to recommend which of A,B,C is least bad. My point is that choices A and B are both much *improved* if the trilliant is -5 per element instead of -10, because in any given room there's less discrepancy and more balance between the experiences of different parties based purely on one expensive token. Everyone with the trilliant will still be happy they wore one. The legendary is still worth making for those with the means to do so, because it protects against more different things so you don't have to guess which one will be most relevant (same reason UR Greaves of Absorption are better than the rare Greaves), plus extra saves. Nobody has to suffer the misery of Choice C.

Note that the proposed overall DR cap of 20 doesn't actually help because it's barking up the wrong tree. It's not that having e.g. -10 Fire under any circumstances is bad; a budget player can look through tokendb.com/subtracts-damage-from/fire/ and get to -10 Fire with four Rare tokens, or higher (with diminishing returns) if willing to devote additional slots to the effort, but that's fine because it's a substantial tradeoff for the opportunity cost of all the other things you could have put in all those slots. By the same logic, I have no problem with someone building to -30 Fire if they have to use up a bunch of slots to do it; work hard and accomplish great things! The problem is getting -10 from a single token.

Please consider making the relic and legendary trilliants -5.

I'm fine with including darkrift, and I also don't mind if they overlap elements with SRoEC (SRoEC is already broken and there's no fixing it now, that ship sailed long ago, though at least it takes up a valuable slot. I just want to avoid having this new token break things that aren't broken yet)
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #47

David Zych wrote: Re IS Sunstone Trilliant... I'll try one more different way of making this case.

Choose Your Own Adventure

Suppose the legendary trilliant at -10 exists. You're designing a combat room in which it makes sense for a monster to deal Fire damage to the whole party. How much damage do you have it deal?

A) 10 Fire, because a priori that seems like a reasonable number in context.

When you turn to page 42, people with the trilliant literally laugh it off; everyone else takes reasonable damage. Player opinions about the room vary widely as a result.

B) 20 Fire, because we don't want people with trilliants laughing it off entirely, especially since it seems like half the players these days are running around with trilliants.

When you turn to page 69, people with trilliant are happy they wore it and say "ow", but everyone else says "OUCH holy $#!+ this dungeon is way overtuned, TD is such a pay to win game, etc etc"

C) 10 irresistible/Eldritch "fire", because the other two choices are both lousy now that the world is full of OP trilliants.

When you turn to page 394, absolutely everybody is unhappy. People with trilliants feel they wasted money/resources building a trilliant, because what's the point if it never does anything; people without trilliants are sad that their Flameguard Greaves don't help prevent a little bit of it even though they guessed right about the dungeon having fire.



My point is not to recommend which of A,B,C is least bad. My point is that choices A and B are both much *improved* if the trilliant is -5 per element instead of -10, because in any given room there's less discrepancy and more balance between the experiences of different parties based purely on one expensive token. Everyone with the trilliant will still be happy they wore one. The legendary is still worth making for those with the means to do so, because it protects against more different things so you don't have to guess which one will be most relevant (same reason UR Greaves of Absorption are better than the rare Greaves), plus extra saves. Nobody has to suffer the misery of Choice C.

Note that the proposed overall DR cap of 20 doesn't actually help because it's barking up the wrong tree. It's not that having e.g. -10 Fire under any circumstances is bad; a budget player can look through tokendb.com/subtracts-damage-from/fire/ and get to -10 Fire with four Rare tokens, or higher (with diminishing returns) if willing to devote additional slots to the effort, but that's fine because it's a substantial tradeoff for the opportunity cost of all the other things you could have put in all those slots. By the same logic, I have no problem with someone building to -30 Fire if they have to use up a bunch of slots to do it; work hard and accomplish great things! The problem is getting -10 from a single token.

Please consider making the relic and legendary trilliants -5.

I'm fine with including darkrift, and I also don't mind if they overlap elements with SRoEC (SRoEC is already broken and there's no fixing it now, that ship sailed long ago, though at least it takes up a valuable slot. I just want to avoid having this new token break things that aren't broken yet)

excellent post. Agree and fully +1
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2025 Transmuted Tokens 3 months 3 weeks ago #48

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David Zych wrote: Re IS Sunstone Trilliant... I'll try one more different way of making this case.

Choose Your Own Adventure

Suppose the legendary trilliant at -10 exists. You're designing a combat room in which it makes sense for a monster to deal Fire damage to the whole party. How much damage do you have it deal?

A) 10 Fire, because a priori that seems like a reasonable number in context.

When you turn to page 42, people with the trilliant literally laugh it off; everyone else takes reasonable damage. Player opinions about the room vary widely as a result.

B) 20 Fire, because we don't want people with trilliants laughing it off entirely, especially since it seems like half the players these days are running around with trilliants.

When you turn to page 69, people with trilliant are happy they wore it and say "ow", but everyone else says "OUCH holy $#!+ this dungeon is way overtuned, TD is such a pay to win game, etc etc"

C) 10 irresistible/Eldritch "fire", because the other two choices are both lousy now that the world is full of OP trilliants.

When you turn to page 394, absolutely everybody is unhappy. People with trilliants feel they wasted money/resources building a trilliant, because what's the point if it never does anything; people without trilliants are sad that their Flameguard Greaves don't help prevent a little bit of it even though they guessed right about the dungeon having fire.



My point is not to recommend which of A,B,C is least bad. My point is that choices A and B are both much *improved* if the trilliant is -5 per element instead of -10, because in any given room there's less discrepancy and more balance between the experiences of different parties based purely on one expensive token. Everyone with the trilliant will still be happy they wore one. The legendary is still worth making for those with the means to do so, because it protects against more different things so you don't have to guess which one will be most relevant (same reason UR Greaves of Absorption are better than the rare Greaves), plus extra saves. Nobody has to suffer the misery of Choice C.

Note that the proposed overall DR cap of 20 doesn't actually help because it's barking up the wrong tree. It's not that having e.g. -10 Fire under any circumstances is bad; a budget player can look through tokendb.com/subtracts-damage-from/fire/ and get to -10 Fire with four Rare tokens, or higher (with diminishing returns) if willing to devote additional slots to the effort, but that's fine because it's a substantial tradeoff for the opportunity cost of all the other things you could have put in all those slots. By the same logic, I have no problem with someone building to -30 Fire if they have to use up a bunch of slots to do it; work hard and accomplish great things! The problem is getting -10 from a single token.

Please consider making the relic and legendary trilliants -5.

I'm fine with including darkrift, and I also don't mind if they overlap elements with SRoEC (SRoEC is already broken and there's no fixing it now, that ship sailed long ago, though at least it takes up a valuable slot. I just want to avoid having this new token break things that aren't broken yet)

+1 to this entirely.

Though my solution is don't give so much generic DR at all, instead take a note from Cloak of Shadowskin. Please consider:
Reduce an instance of elemental damage by 10 1/adventure + 1 saves
Reduce an instance of elemental damage by 20 1/adventure, +2 saves
Reduce an instance of elemental damage to 0 1/adventure, + 3 saves
(Could be 2/adventure or 1/combat, though saves may be too strong for 1/combat)

Reduce an instance of damage verbiage used so players still need to save against attack effects. To avoid this scenario change wording to "absorb an elemental damage attack" at legendary level.

If changed to 1/Combat, I suggest dropping save bonus to +1 at all levels.

I think any amount of such high generic DR is just too much. Before this point we never had DR beyond 2 or 3 of very specific types. Arcanum greaves are only going to be -2 or -3. Going to 10 is insane. Even going to 5 is insane since its 5 to half the damage types in the game.
Last edit: by Impy.
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