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TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens

2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #37

The current version doesn't restrict to melee attacks.

I like the current version.

Put me in the bead necklace is too good camp.

I also love retribution but think 5 might be enough for the helm

The Charm should probably be toned down too.

Bead of Celecia is great.

I think maybe add focus to the earcuff? Or, if that's too good, make it healing and damage scrolls.

Foe the holy symbol, maybe and heals all characters 3 when monster is turned?

Or something to show you can't just do it if there isn't a mo stereo there.

Shield of attraction is fine Most will keep redoubt, lucky or death knight anyhow.

Taunt master charm isn't enough I don't think.

Thors may be 1or 2 damage too good.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #38

Bead of Celecia: is now identical to Crown of Expertise, but in a slot that you get 3 (or more!) of instead of a slot that you get 1 of. I'll certainly use the token if it stays this way, but I thought the previous slightly-restricted version was better balanced.

I heart Hedgehog <3

Charm of Valkyrie's Kiss: I think this should say "can't be raised til..." (as opposed to saying that you can't raise someone else, which goes without saying since the only thing you can do is attack)

Death Knight Helm: agree with Endgame and others, this is better as +3 Strength, like a class restricted Crown of Might variant for heavy armor classes only

IS Ruby Trilliant: please bring back the -5 version!
I have no problem with people using multiple IS slots to get -5 against several different damage types, because that has some opportunity cost to balance it; the problem is being able to get -10 with a single token. Topaz Trilliant (and Sphere) have already made a mess of Darkrift damage, but let's not extend the mess to more elements... nobody wants to end up with dungeons full of Bogus Magical Eldritch Fire damage.

Picc's Norn Runestone: I love it, but can we change the name back to Picc's Grindstone and just put "(Runestone slot, reusable)" at the bottom?

Thor's Mug: is no fun anymore ( montypython.fandom.com/wiki/You%27re_No_Fun_Anymore )
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #39

Okay, one more thing... it seems clear at this point that we're getting bead slot expanders whether we like it or not, but why is this "necessary"? Because nearly all UR+ players will fill their first two bead slots with TE, leaving just one bead slot for equipping interesting beads that do stuff. Here's a workaround:

Bead of Greed: +2 Treasure Chips, may equip one additional Bead

Q: Why not just make it slotless then?
A: I'd be fine with that too, but the difference is that my suggestion would still count toward the total Bead slot cap.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #40

Death Knight Helm: should have + STR as every other DK piece is + STR. It’s the unique traits of the DK set.

Thors Mug of Melee: if it’s not slotless, then I like the +5 damage

Shield of Attraction: love this as Paladin in my main, but even so, I’ll probably stick with my redoubt. Not sure how to make it more desirable.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #41

What is a slot expander? A slot exchanger plus a slotless effect.

What is a relic in a legendary transmute path? An UR plus a slotless effect.

A legendary? An UR plus two slotless effects or a relic plus a slotless effect.

Introducing any legendary path has a similar effect to just creating new slots. Slot expanders are obviously creating new slots.

Charm Bracelets were the best wrist slot token. Not the best for every build, but the best on balance due to how many different builds where it was the best. But, wrist was an interesting decision because other wrist options had reasons to be run. There's no reason to run any wrist token over Luna's. It killed the slot for any new wrist token outside of a TE in wrist or comparable level of slot expander.

I can be resigned to a bead expander in neck that gives +2 beads. There is no reason to have transmute paths for slot expanders. Slot expanders are already the same as creating new slots, then just creating even more slots. "But, sales?!?" An UR bead expander in neck that gives +2 beads will sell. It's BiS for multiple classes for reasons Endgame points out about how bead somehow gained as much power as neck had previously.

The class neck legendaries are overpowered. Even if someone will keep running Ashenne's because it's much cooler or even if it makes a build better, there shouldn't be yet another neck legendary competing with it for wizards. Then, versatility matters. Thor's isn't the optimal weapon in every build, but it's the optimal legendary weapon to own as it goes into so many different builds.

Legendaries should not just be generic benefits to every build. Why not when those sell? Because they remove design space. We are increasingly running out of places to put things in that sell because so many slots are essentially slotlocked. Legendaries are at their best when they are like Surtr's or even the new eyepatch (which is best at 2/3/5 progression), where there are reasons for only some builds to want them so that can keep selling legendaries, Arcanum, or even relics or even URs in those same slots to other people.

While maybe more relevant in the transmute thread, I didn't even want to write something here, so as to the Ioun Stone plan, I am all in favor of a legendary transmute path for an IS since there currently isn't one. I have no problems with someone running more than one Trilliant as there is an opportunity cost. But, +2 saves and -5 damage will sell to the same people who would look for +2 saves and -10 damage. There's too much gilding the lily when the lily would satisfy the market.

We used to have zero bead slots. Then, one. That TEs were put into bead slot was a decision. Really, at this point, since the game can create slots out of nothing, can also kill any bead slot expander and just say everyone has five bead slots. What possible pro is there to that? At least the people who thought their Bog's/Druegar's/Iktomi's/Viv's/Ashenne's/Benrow's/Ralson's/Raphiel's were the coolest thing ever because they loved a particular class wouldn't get bitter over some generic good stuff legendary that might currently or in the future just be better while being completely generic. And, there are currently reasons to run Stu-Pendous/Champion/Valhalla/Sweetwoods/Charm Necklace in neck now, where a bead expander in neck will make all of those trash.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #42

Why does the Runestone say redeem at start / may reuse? Do you have to turn it in or not?

I don't like the idea of UR Runestones, suggest making it something else.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #43

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Less Quick thoughts, now that I have time:

+2 Rod of Focus - Nice to see the (effective) return of the Baton of Focus; great multi-purpose Magic-User weapon

Bead Necklace - I kinda don't wanna throw my hat in this ring, but... honestly, I feel the same way about it as I do about Treasure Enhancers. If TD wants to make money offering tokens which they *know* will drive sales, then this is a pretty solid offering. If it was me, I'd do the Bead-Expander Transmutes on a year when there's no URTE in the mix, because this year the Bead of Greed will drive sales just fine. But in the end, I'll trust TD to know their player base.

Bead of Celecia - I really enjoy seeing Beads with cool effects, rather than the standard +2 to STAT which Charms & Iouns tend towards.
Also: is this an honorarily named token? I'm not familiar with it in a Norse context (or anywhere else)

Beed of Greed - Expected. Love the rhyming name, and the art ; )

Belt of the Aesir - My Relic Frost Giant belt is sad to see URs with the same +'s to stats... but hey, it was coming. And honestly, it's a good belt. Better as a belt than it was as Gloves

Charm of the Hedgehog - this is frikken *adorable* and I love that the hedgehog crew is getting some love with the inclusion of this token! While the rest of us argue about "Build Diversity" (but really just complain about Melee vs Ranged vs Spell vs Poly damage potential) this is a build option which really pushes the envelope. Two thumbs up. Heck, I'll chop off someone else's thumb just to give this a third thumbs up.

Charm of Valkyrie's Kiss - Love the concept. I think it's more aimed at a newbie crowd than MEC users or other seasoned vets, but I wouldn't be upset if we saw some creative uses. It's a very situational token.

Coin of Temptation - You'd think as a Rogue Main, I'd be upset to see other classes edging in on my unique class abilities, but you know what? Let them try it out. It's once per game, and if it makes someone else's event more fun, then it's no skin off my back.

Death Knight Helm - With the popularity of this set, I'm sure many folks will be happy to pick up this UR. I'll echo other folks' comments that it doesn't really need Retribution damage. We can always make a retribution helm as part of token design in some other year, if people want it. This year has a sweet Retribution offering already. Give the helm something else?

Earcuff of the Cabal - I like the update to wording which specifically includes Mystic staffs

Eyepatch of the Aesir - I'll leave my comments out of this. Nice art, tho.

Greaves of Deflection - solid, and expected, addition to the multi-year greaves transmute.

Holy Symbol of Selenwa - I like it. I'd love to see some sort of Build Diversity for Clerics which revolved around Holy Symbols and Turn Undead (like this bonus turn damage, or the Items which allow turn to work on other monsters) ... the addition of healing to the Turn is a nice touch.

IS: Ruby Trilliant - I'll let other people hash this one out. I will echo what someone else said, though, that a series of Trilliants would make a very nice multi-year transmute. In the meantime: nice art!

Nigthshade's Grim Gloves: I'm biased, but I really like them. I've been wanting a route to that 3x Crit in melee combat, and this hits the spot nicely.

I'll note that, unlike other iterations of this token, this doesn't seem restricted to melee only. This would allow a Nightshade's Throwing Dagger or a 2-handed bow access to the Triple Crit as well (assuming you have a way to do Ranged Sneak Attack) and I'm fine with that. It's still limited to Sneak Attacks, and therefore not as broken as the Assassin's Crossbow.

Some people have pointed out that "+2 to hit with Sneak Attack" is hard for DMs to track, and I agree... but there's precedent with Boots of the Underdark, and +1 Assassin's Crossbow. In fact, the Party Card had room to note "+ to SA" last time I checked. ...Combat DMs rarely bother to glance at it, but it's there.

If it's too hard on coaches or DMs though.... a +1 or +2 to Str would probably still be in line with the power level.

Picc's Norn Runestone - I had enjoyed the play on words with "GRINDstone" but this is nice too. It might make me actually use a Runestone for the first time in a decade. (Also, consider this a vote to go back to "Grindstone" if that's an option. This isn't technically a Runestone if it doesn't get turned in.)

Shield Maiden Bracers - A nice offering to keep shields relevant in a game where 2-Handed damage seems to be a more & more popular path

Shield of Attraction - I seriously like this, and would get it for my (rarely-played) Paladin build.

Taunt Master Charm - Taunts are one of the Role Playing elements which add to my enjoyment of the game, so I look forward to seeing this in use!

Thor's Mug of Melee - Wow, that damage boost is *very* appealing to my Rogue. Too appealing, probably. It could some down a notch. Also (not super relevant, but thematically I wonder) since Rogues are one of the few classes which are likely to equip a non-shield item in their offhand, could we someday get a more... stealthy? ... offhand item? There's Brawlers Mugs and Horns and Orbs... but what about a Nightstick or Edged Fan or Claw or Main Gauche? ... Aright, yeah not very Norse. Maybe not on theme for this year. But I'd be okay with waiting a year to get a nice off-hand damage-bonus item since the Rogues get a treat already this year.

Maybe bring back the proposed Loki's mug, but as a slotted offhand item. Let people use up some of their old penalty-ridden consumables and have some fun. Consumables are a self-limiting problem if they turn out to be particularly problematic.

Thanks for a really fun set of URs to poke at, Jeff!
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #44

Re: Picc's Norn Runestone - any chance Runestone Fitting Bases could see an errata to allow UR Runestones in addition to Rares?
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #45

Fiddy wrote: Re: Picc's Norn Runestone - any chance Runestone Fitting Bases could see an errata to allow UR Runestones in addition to Rares?

Sounds like an ability for a fitting base transmute.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #46

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Endgame wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Re: Picc's Norn Runestone - any chance Runestone Fitting Bases could see an errata to allow UR Runestones in addition to Rares?

Sounds like an ability for a fitting base transmute.


That's a transmute path I'd like to see at some point.

I'll also echo what others have said above, I miss the grindstone name. It was a fun pun XD
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #47

Shield Maiden Bracers allow the use of a "Shield" when using a two-handed melee weapon. A few questions arise regarding this token. First, am I correct that this overrides the one-handed designation on tokens such as Giln's Redoubt Shield? Second, does this allow equipping tokens that are typically in the melee offhand that aren't a "Shield" (for example, the +2 Mug of Battle which has a one-handed melee restriction)? Third, does this token allow the 2025 UR Thor's Mug of Melee to be equipped in the melee off-hand (it isn't a shield, but also doesn't have the one-handed weapon icon)? I would think that logically a token that would allow a two-handed weapon to be wielded with a large shield would allow a smaller item such as a Mug. But I am not sure whether the reference to "Shield" was a conscious decision to eliminate the use of other offhand items.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 5 months 1 week ago #48

Manimal wrote: Shield Maiden Bracers allow the use of a "Shield" when using a two-handed melee weapon. A few questions arise regarding this token. First, am I correct that this overrides the one-handed designation on tokens such as Giln's Redoubt Shield? Second, does this allow equipping tokens that are typically in the melee offhand that aren't a "Shield" (for example, the +2 Mug of Battle which has a one-handed melee restriction)? Third, does this token allow the 2025 UR Thor's Mug of Melee to be equipped in the melee off-hand (it isn't a shield, but also doesn't have the one-handed weapon icon)? I would think that logically a token that would allow a two-handed weapon to be wielded with a large shield would allow a smaller item such as a Mug. But I am not sure whether the reference to "Shield" was a conscious decision to eliminate the use of other offhand items.


+ 1 Really good question
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