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TOPIC: 2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three

2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #25

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Grizwald wrote: Jeff, how do the Gladiator Gloves interact with Benrow's Elder Drake Necklace? A monk would be throwing two 1H melee weapons.


They are going to add their bonuses to the melee damage slot on the party card.

Ranged FoB attacks with Benrow’s use the ranged damage slot on the party card.

So, as written these do nothing for ranged FoB attacks with Benrow’s.

They could be changed to specifically grant monks a FoB damage bonus, that would apply to Ranged FoB attacks with Benrow’s.


You might be right or you might be wrong. As written, I would say that the gloves work with Benrow's. That's why I asked the question.

Jeff Martin wrote: All damage is Sacred.

Acherin wrote: I also added VTD support for the most annoying token of 2024 the +2 Sun Scimitar.

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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #26

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Grizwald wrote: Jeff, how do the Gladiator Gloves interact with Benrow's Elder Drake Necklace? A monk would be throwing two 1H melee weapons.

I would argue RAW they would not

From tokendb

All the wearer’s flurry of blows-compatible weapons may be thrown (using ranged combat stats), automatically return to the wearer, and may be used again the next round. These are considered flurry of blows attacks and therefore gain all the bonuses/penalties associated with flurry of blows attacks, including the aforementioned +7 damage as Sacred and the ability to trigger dazing/stunning fist on a natural 19-20*.


A thrown weapon is no longer a melee weapon, thus damage would would not be applied

They would however work with Gloves of the Flying Fist RAW

Monks wearing these gloves may make flurry of blows (and by extension, dazing/stunning fist) attacks against ranged targets. These attacks are made using the monk’s melee modifiers on the party card and whichever melee token(s) the player is using. Do not place this token in the slider because it has no damage wheel.

Last edit: by Impy.
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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #27

Greater Gloves of the Gladiator is missing the Relic (5-star) symbol
Cleric main / Druid secondary
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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #28

Greater gloves of the gladiator: missing the star icon indicating transmute tier
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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #29

Lequinian wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Most people don’t seem to like the crit range on the Legendary.

Probably that should just be removed.

Some ideas leaning into Fighters as having the best melee To-Hit ability:

+1 to hit baked in

Auto-hit (not crit) on skid 19

Subclass Duellist Twist the Blade ability? (Duelists with this weapon can twist the blade twice?)


As a fighter, I don’t need more to-hit, especially just +1.

Again I’m the target audience for this thing and I don’t see me transmuting it.


More to hit does mean a larger power attack when used with Viv's.
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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #30

As others have mention I think the sword's damage wheel is too high and the gloves maybe a little too strong. I think 1H 3/4/6 and 2H 5/6/8 is more on par.

Was thinking about the healing on the legendary sword, maybe too good. What about something like:

Battle Surge: Heal 8 hp instantly (1/game) or maybe 2/game.

Everything else looks really cool!
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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #31

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Lequinian wrote: As a fighter, I don’t need more to-hit, especially just +1.


More to hit does mean a larger power attack when used with Viv's.


+1 damage is just a UC effect.

I just noticed the wheel change, so it's a +5 as is over Welfor's. That's better, but it means that becomes the baseline that the other class-specific beat.

I'd rather have the crit dropped for something unique to the fighter. Personally - preferably something that is a party help like Sunder, but I hear Jeff's no. Bleed?
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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #32

Welfor's Sword has an average damage of 10.5. The new Legendary has an average damage of 15.6, expanded crit range and heals 8 points on hit.

I get Welfor's wasn't the best Legendary but this is a huge increase. I suggest dropping the damage a bit, keep the crit range, and get rid of the heal on hit bonus. Fighter is the class I play most and we really don't need any extra power on a new Legendary sword. Give us to hit and damage and we're fine.

Also, general game design comment:

For to hit, average damage, focus, saves, etc. it would make sense to have a set range of bonuses for each Token rarity and then maybe adjust that range upward every 4 or 5 years. You could communicate these ranges to the community and I think it would make your life a lot easier when it comes to Token design each year.

Example (and just making these numbers up):

Average Fighter Melee Damage Range by Token rarity

Common: 2-4
Uncommon: 4-6
Rare: 6-8
UR: 8-10
Relic: 10-13
Legendary: 14-17
Mythic 2: 18-22
Mythic 1: 23-27

Then every 5 years adjust these ranges as needed and lock them in for another 5 years.
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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #33

Rob F wrote: Welfor's Sword has an average damage of 10.5. The new Legendary has an average damage of 15.6, expanded crit range and heals 8 points on hit.

I get Welfor's wasn't the best Legendary but this is a huge increase. I suggest dropping the damage a bit, keep the crit range, and get rid of the heal on hit bonus. Fighter is the class I play most and we really don't need any extra power on a new Legendary sword. Give us to hit and damage and we're fine.

Also, general game design comment:

For to hit, average damage, focus, saves, etc. it would make sense to have a set range of bonuses for each Token rarity and then maybe adjust that range upward every 4 or 5 years. You could communicate these ranges to the community and I think it would make your life a lot easier when it comes to Token design each year.

Example (and just making these numbers up):

Average Fighter Melee Damage Range by Token rarity

Common: 2-4
Uncommon: 4-6
Rare: 6-8
UR: 8-10
Relic: 10-13
Legendary: 14-17
Mythic 2: 18-22
Mythic 1: 23-27

Then every 5 years adjust these ranges as needed and lock them in for another 5 years.

There really shouldn't be a need to adjust within the rarity range. We don't eventually need commons dealing 10+ damage. Locking it in forever in the same range is 100% entirely fine.
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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #34

Endgame wrote:

Rob F wrote: Welfor's Sword has an average damage of 10.5. The new Legendary has an average damage of 15.6, expanded crit range and heals 8 points on hit.

I get Welfor's wasn't the best Legendary but this is a huge increase. I suggest dropping the damage a bit, keep the crit range, and get rid of the heal on hit bonus. Fighter is the class I play most and we really don't need any extra power on a new Legendary sword. Give us to hit and damage and we're fine.

Also, general game design comment:

For to hit, average damage, focus, saves, etc. it would make sense to have a set range of bonuses for each Token rarity and then maybe adjust that range upward every 4 or 5 years. You could communicate these ranges to the community and I think it would make your life a lot easier when it comes to Token design each year.

Example (and just making these numbers up):

Average Fighter Melee Damage Range by Token rarity

Common: 2-4
Uncommon: 4-6
Rare: 6-8
UR: 8-10
Relic: 10-13
Legendary: 14-17
Mythic 2: 18-22
Mythic 1: 23-27

Then every 5 years adjust these ranges as needed and lock them in for another 5 years.

There really shouldn't be a need to adjust within the rarity range. We don't eventually need commons dealing 10+ damage. Locking it in forever in the same range is 100% entirely fine.


Ideally, you would keep common / uncommon / rare similarly close in damage and then you can set a new range for UR then a gap for Relic and so forth. That way you can level set to create some separation and make it easier to determine difficulty based on weapon. There's no doubt that keeping the damage ranges similar between all tiers helps people go from one to another easier but it seems that's not the desired direction at this time.
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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #35

While more damage is not always the answer folks want to collect unique tokens. By locking in a damage range I think TD would be limiting its design space.

Also if for example single weapon sliding classes are falling behind a bit, or will if Int/Wis/Cha start being more impactful being able to adjust these is important.

I know seeing older tokens being less useful is not a great feeling, but we are on the brink of new class cards. As a Druid player I know some of my catalog of tokens probably won’t be as useful as this process completes. It sounds like Elf Wizard is also in for some changes. The 2024 design space could end up being very different from the 2022 design space.

This game needs to be able to grow and change and token design shouldn’t be locked.
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2024 Transmuted Token Images < Part Three 1 year 3 months ago #36

Kusig wrote: Ideally, you would keep common / uncommon / rare similarly close in damage and then you can set a new range for UR then a gap for Relic and so forth. That way you can level set to create some separation and make it easier to determine difficulty based on weapon. There's no doubt that keeping the damage ranges similar between all tiers helps people go from one to another easier but it seems that's not the desired direction at this time.


Yes, I can see where / why there would be desire to reset the damage wheels at UR+. The original design back in 2014 with welfor’s left 0 room for using smaller damage wheels with abilities without those tokens also having lower damage than the tier below.

This is the 3rd time that UR weapons are being adjusted (original URs were +2, or +1 with an ability like life stealing).

If it must be done again, to prevent a 4th refactoring, now would be the time to decide on all the damage ranges at each rarity and then design rough weapons that could fill those ranges for the next 20 years. They don’t have to be implemented, but if you can create a weapon roadmap for 20 years worth of weapons, you have a solid design principal.
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