TOPIC: Safehold Program Targeted Feedback on Rules > Part THREE

Kusig wrote: Unpopular opinion I'm sure but I think with the current slots listed for followers that at Safehold 1 allowing 2 followers isn't bad.

I agree, at lvl 1 allowing 2 isn’t bad. Price of getting there vs what they offer vs increase impact isn’t a bad balance.

Jamie Campbell wrote: The logic is when the order is made. Make the order in may. Turn in order to gencon in august. Make another order in august and now you have it.

Very cool didn't know that was acceptable. This will definitely help out at GenCon if people do transmute orders months in advance but turn in at GenCon.

Suggestion for the Mythic Tokens:

In keeping consistent with the Tier structure I think the Tier 2 Mythic's should have two black rings on their border and the Tier 1 Mythic's should have a single ring on their border. Two rings on the border = a Tier 2 Mythic, one ring = a Tier 1 Mythic. And maybe make the border ring of a Tier 1 Mythic a different color, maybe a single gold ring on the border.

I think the Hirling Oracle should be reduced to +1 Saves. At +2 to all Saves it gives you a total of +6 across all Saves. So IMO there's virtually no incentive for players to use the Brewmaster, Martial Artist or Scribe. Making the Oracle +1 to Saves (+3 across all Saves) will now make it a tougher choice and I think you'll see some justification for potentially equipping one of the others. But at +2 to all Saves none of the other +4 Tokens will ever get used.

Rob F wrote: I think the Hirling Oracle should be reduced to +1 Saves. At +2 to all Saves it gives you a total of +6 across all Saves. So IMO there's virtually no incentive for players to use the Brewmaster, Martial Artist or Scribe. Making the Oracle +1 to Saves (+3 across all Saves) will now make it a tougher choice and I think you'll see some justification for potentially equipping one of the others. But at +2 to all Saves none of the other +4 Tokens will ever get used.

I disagree. The +4 Will save will get used for sure. It'll also even out your lowest save when you need it. I actually don't know if I'd use the +2 saves currently as typically reflex is going to be higher than the others for ranged builds and fort is already high if you stack CON. I rather keep +2 otherwise +1 will never get used.

Reminder at higher levels you get two hirelings

I would like to see the Oracle stay at +2 saves if it is going to be included. I do think if one of them was going to be replaced by another hireling Oracle would be the one to replace though. By being a generalist save ability it is less interesting.

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote: I think the Hirling Oracle should be reduced to +1 Saves. At +2 to all Saves it gives you a total of +6 across all Saves. So IMO there's virtually no incentive for players to use the Brewmaster, Martial Artist or Scribe. Making the Oracle +1 to Saves (+3 across all Saves) will now make it a tougher choice and I think you'll see some justification for potentially equipping one of the others. But at +2 to all Saves none of the other +4 Tokens will ever get used.

I disagree. The +4 Will save will get used for sure. It'll also even out your lowest save when you need it. I actually don't know if I'd use the +2 saves currently as typically reflex is going to be higher than the others for ranged builds and fort is already high if you stack CON. I rather keep +2 otherwise +1 will never get used.

Reminder at higher levels you get two hirelings

Currently in game Tokens that grant +4 to a specific Save are Rare level Tokens, (Ring of Reflexes, Ring of Fortitude, etc.), +1 to all Saves (Ioun Stone Beryl Prism) also a Rare level power whereas +2 to all Saves is a UR level power (Tanzanite Cube). At 6 extra Saves I'm always equipping the Oracle if my goal is Saves. If TD wants to keep the Hirling powers inline with what they've done with past Tokens it should be +1.

Another suggestion with the Hirelings:

Change the Archer and Champion to to +1 Damages and the Duelist and Fletcher to +2 to Hits. Why? Because damage is typically more sought after than to hit. A +2 to damage is like giving someone +4 strength whereas a +1 to hit is like only giving +2. Not much incentive IMO for someone to equip the Duelist or Fletcher over the Archer and Champion.

Edit: Same for the Underlings flip flop the +3 damage / +2 hit and make them +2 damage / +3 to hit.

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote: I think the Hirling Oracle should be reduced to +1 Saves. At +2 to all Saves it gives you a total of +6 across all Saves. So IMO there's virtually no incentive for players to use the Brewmaster, Martial Artist or Scribe. Making the Oracle +1 to Saves (+3 across all Saves) will now make it a tougher choice and I think you'll see some justification for potentially equipping one of the others. But at +2 to all Saves none of the other +4 Tokens will ever get used.

I disagree. The +4 Will save will get used for sure. It'll also even out your lowest save when you need it. I actually don't know if I'd use the +2 saves currently as typically reflex is going to be higher than the others for ranged builds and fort is already high if you stack CON. I rather keep +2 otherwise +1 will never get used.

Reminder at higher levels you get two hirelings

Currently in game Tokens that grant +4 to a specific Save are Rare level Tokens, (Ring of Reflexes, Ring of Fortitude, etc.), +1 to all Saves (Ioun Stone Beryl Prism) also a Rare level power whereas +2 to all Saves is a UR level power (Tanzanite Cube). At 6 extra Saves I'm always equipping the Oracle if my goal is Saves. If TD wants to keep the Hirling powers inline with what they've done with past Tokens it should be +1.

+2 all saves is a rare ability on cloak of resistance. +2 ranged damage is a UR ability currently in IS.

Probably best not to start trying to compare ring slot and IS for ability power unless you want to open a whole can of worms. +2 is more than fine and I would be willing to make a bet it won't be the most commonly used.

Rob F wrote: Another suggestion with the Hirelings:

Change the Archer and Champion to to +1 Damages and the Duelist and Fletcher to +2 to Hits. Why? Because damage is typically more sought after than to hit. A +2 to damage is like giving someone +4 strength whereas a +1 to hit is like only giving +2. Not much incentive IMO for someone to equip the Duelist or Fletcher over the Archer and Champion.

Edit: Same for the Underlings flip flop the +3 damage / +2 hit and make them +2 damage / +3 to hit.

I'd rather just see them each have the same +2 across hireling and +3 for underlings. There's a lot of factors you have to consider when evaluating +hit vs +damage including difficulty and targets.l AC vs health pool. Given we know very little about the proposed Mythic difficulty leaving them each with the same modifier in a tier leaves less issues later.

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote: I think the Hirling Oracle should be reduced to +1 Saves. At +2 to all Saves it gives you a total of +6 across all Saves. So IMO there's virtually no incentive for players to use the Brewmaster, Martial Artist or Scribe. Making the Oracle +1 to Saves (+3 across all Saves) will now make it a tougher choice and I think you'll see some justification for potentially equipping one of the others. But at +2 to all Saves none of the other +4 Tokens will ever get used.

I disagree. The +4 Will save will get used for sure. It'll also even out your lowest save when you need it. I actually don't know if I'd use the +2 saves currently as typically reflex is going to be higher than the others for ranged builds and fort is already high if you stack CON. I rather keep +2 otherwise +1 will never get used.

Reminder at higher levels you get two hirelings

Currently in game Tokens that grant +4 to a specific Save are Rare level Tokens, (Ring of Reflexes, Ring of Fortitude, etc.), +1 to all Saves (Ioun Stone Beryl Prism) also a Rare level power whereas +2 to all Saves is a UR level power (Tanzanite Cube). At 6 extra Saves I'm always equipping the Oracle if my goal is Saves. If TD wants to keep the Hirling powers inline with what they've done with past Tokens it should be +1.

+2 all saves is a rare ability on cloak of resistance. +2 ranged damage is a UR ability currently in IS.

Probably best not to start trying to compare ring slot and IS for ability power unless you want to open a whole can of worms. +2 is more than fine and I would be willing to make a bet it won't be the most commonly used.

True on the Cloak but Charm, Bead, Ioun Stone are all +2 Saves at the UR level.

Let's stick with Rings though as it's the only current slot that has Tokens which consist of either a + to all Saves or a +4 to individual ones.

The Rare Ring of Favor grants +1 to Saves and +1 to AC. The other Rare Rings (Reflexes, Fortitude, Iron Will) all Grant +4 to the individual Save.

I'd be ok with +1 Saves, +1 AC for the Oracle. This would also give someone that's chasing AC a small bump, currently none of the other Hirelings or Underlings have an AC bump.

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote: Another suggestion with the Hirelings:

Change the Archer and Champion to to +1 Damages and the Duelist and Fletcher to +2 to Hits. Why? Because damage is typically more sought after than to hit. A +2 to damage is like giving someone +4 strength whereas a +1 to hit is like only giving +2. Not much incentive IMO for someone to equip the Duelist or Fletcher over the Archer and Champion.

Edit: Same for the Underlings flip flop the +3 damage / +2 hit and make them +2 damage / +3 to hit.

I'd rather just see them each have the same +2 across hireling and +3 for underlings. There's a lot of factors you have to consider when evaluating +hit vs +damage including difficulty and targets.l AC vs health pool. Given we know very little about the proposed Mythic difficulty leaving them each with the same modifier in a tier leaves less issues later.

Damage is much more sought after than To Hit. Folks aren't going to equip the +1/+2 to hit over the +2/+3 damage. I still say flip them but at the least make them the same.