TOPIC: Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please!

Powerblade3 wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'd suggest either keeping the Follower cap at 1 for all Safeholds, or putting some constraint on Followers (e.g. the tokens the Follower adds to your build must not impact the party card or slots or some other limitation, such as it must be UR or less).

I've supported this idea before, that limiting to 1 combined slot for "followers" (Hirelings / Underlings / Followers) would help ease the bloat that this is going to cause, both in terms of power increase and design space.

+1 here as well. Too much bloat at once

There's no reason to protect some slots and not others. Just because some slots have Eldritch/Arcanum or loser legendaries, every year get new legendaries and the other Arcanum will go somewhere (well, or get a bunch more slotless).

Both Hands and Eyes are obvious places to have new legendaries. We could have easily gotten a transmute path last time for hands that made perfect sense, but we get whipsaw changes all of the time in development.

Doesn't bother me if Mythic rarity tokens are just better than legendaries given that the philosophy with the game is to always just keep making builds have higher numbers. Gives us the illusion of increased power as the effect is really just that Nightmare, Epic, or whatever monsters get higher numbers and things like puzzle/push damage can just keep going up to achieve parity.

I've been following the discord chat both between my close group of friends and the larger TD Fans discord. The reaction to safeholds isn't great, but that isn't being conveyed here.

Let me start with this:



7 responses in a few minutes isn't a ton, but I think everyone is basically quite invested in TD - from players with multiple legendaries to volunteers.

Some select quotes that generated a lot of discussion:

Sorta disappointed that any discussion about the actual effects of the Safehold got ignored and it's just talking about pricing now...

We have gone down the path of effectively slotless bonuses. What discussion of effects really matters? How broken the bonuses are?

I wanted safeholds to be primarily an out-of-game benefit with zero power creep. TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I would be somewhat okay with small, incremental, yet expensive power creep (i.e. mythic is to legendary as legendary is to relic). TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I don't know what to even suggest anymore, because dithering over individual token powers feels like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic

yeah, I thought they were going to be something different, not just another few new slots with the same old +stats. This is the most convoluted way of just saying "expensive new slots to unlock"

Safeholds are just a symptom of a philosophy of not caring about sustainability. Too many of the arguments are just so repetitive, and the focus is in the wrong place. I see an agreement on what players want posted here, then we just keep getting the same stuff that widens the gap between starting numbers (including treasure) and next year numbers.

you know, this is the medal slot all over again times 10

These quotes are all tied to the fatalism that we have a huge slot creep / expansion - the thing that lots of people in the original ideas thread didn't want, including myself.

I'm editing this as a go, because I can't devote large blocks of time to this. I care very much about getting this right, so I've blown a large portion of a holiday day off work following the discussion.

I'm happy to provide guided feedback, but that is extremely challenging given the current status. Do I give feedback on a quickly changing set of new slots with new tokens to represent the entourage now following me through a dungeon? Do I give feedback on the cost of doing so? What about mythic stuff that is a huge can of worms?

Endgame wrote: I've been following the discord chat both between my close group of friends and the larger TD Fans discord. The reaction to safeholds isn't great, but that isn't being conveyed here.

Let me start with this:

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+1
I'll tie my name to this sentiment. I was focused on cost, but I agree with everything Endgame said.

I did really like the Omni Orb and Omni Cube. I don't mind the mythic crafting requirements.

But really all the hireling, follower, underling systems are not great as they are. I like the concept a whole lot. I actually really like the idea Endgame brought up earlier, where you get 1 follower that levels up with your keep. You get 10 initiate (1 for each class) and you can upgrade them to the next tier when the next safehold unlocks like how you make new minions now.

As a newer player I may or may not be the target of this program. I really can't tell because the experience of starting over the past year has been mostly about using resources to buy and transmute gear to make my character better and more in line with other groups to run dungeons with.

If V and IV is in line for me then maybe look to tie the construction tokens to my player level - that accomplishes the goal of getting people to play more and then spend resources on actual benefits. Now I get that at some point it makes sense for for level IV or III to start costing resources, but give a bit of an intro to the program to get people into it.

I cannot comment on player gap and exclusive tokens that couldn't be laoned to me as I haven't been around long enough to really understand how this could or could not impact my experience, but it is concerning to see so much split between if this direction is good or not.

Is the .pdf link not working anymore? or is it just me?

I read back further from today's discussion. and here is a really, really key set of posts.

I am not going to commit one way or the other right now, but I am heavily leaning epic is good enough and I kinda like my build right where it is

I think if I stopped buying tokens today I could still play Epic for years to come without issue

This one is from myself:

Endgame — Today at 4:25 PM
That’s one of the dangers right? What does it take to get a number of existing buyers to just say “this is stupid” And quit buying? With the loss of any reward for playing above hardcore, the only reason anyone buys more than 4*s is because it’s fun

Are safeholds the tipping point that pushes some people to just quit buying? Probably not, but it's hard to say. In retrospect I can name the points where several other games I've played collapsed, but given TD is a team game, and the in person dungeon experience is awesome so it's different than other games.

Krym wrote: Is the .pdf link not working anymore? or is it just me?

Replace the 4 with a 5 in the hyper link

EDIT:

truedungeon.com/files/Safehold_Program_Details5.pdf

payden wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Andy Strassmann wrote: I respectfully but strongly suggest that TD sets pricing/recipes by taking a hard look at the target market.

If the goal of Safehold Vs is to excite new folks about transmuting (and coming back more so they can make transmutes happen), you’re talking about occasional players whose builds have a few Rares and often no TEs. Set the recipes so that they can get an appropriately-powered slotless buff with loot from a few runs and they’ll have a goal worth coming back for. Set the starter recipes at the UR (much less Relic) price level and you’re telling them that TD is only for the big spenders—a message that will actively turn potential loyal/happy players off.

Big jumps in recipe costs and benefits between Safehold levels are fine as long as each level matches the target demographic.

There are transmutes every year aimed at that level of token spending, so hopefully those will act as an entry point for transmuting to get people excited about tokens and transmuting. To me, those are much better as entry points for beginning transmuting than the Safehold program.

+1. Exalted and Enhanced. And if one fails to transmute them in the time frame allowed they are still easy and affordable to find. If someone is building a "Safe-hold" (at any level) they should already be somewhat invested in the game.

I 100% disagree with this, do you remember the Charm of Health issue, I do. I remember not being able to make one because large traders made them all to sell for profit. It left a bad taste in my mouth that never went away. Having a multi year transmute is a much better way to draw in and hold a new audience than making a 3*. You see a bigger and grander potential end point with the safe-hold program. You do not have as much of a sense of growth and it doesn't attach you to the game or tokens as much.

Currently you have to play for multiple, multiple years to make the initial safe-hold, people who play religiously at a con will never be able to make this based off of the fleece alone. I feel the first level should be able to be made without making a newer play spend more than $150 as others have stated, reduce the bonuses if needed they are questionable too strong as it is.

I also believe the tokens should be loan-able, at least the TE's, the loaning spirit was the most appealing aspect of the game for me, Jedi was in my first run and set the standard for how a higher end player should act, I have only ever been asked to pay for TE use once and my group said no because it goes against the spirit of the game. Lock up stat boosting gear not the tokens that help players who may be drawn in by the camaraderie. If you don't like people charging to use their TE's be the change in the community and show how it should be done and how you should act.

The Charm of Health was an isolated incident, it's in no way indicative of the yearly three and four star transmutes. And if players want a multi year path we have the Rings now and the new monster bit transmute - Earcuff of Greater Glory.

And I still don't get why people keep equating newer players to people that don't have disposable income for Tokens. Newer players can afford tens of thousands of dollars on Tokens, just ask Kirk. He was a new player once.

Let's not forget that to play just ONE game of in person TD costs 100 bucks. If any player is capable of shelling out $100 for a two hour adventure I'm guessing they are also able to come up with the cost of a Relic over the course of a year. $150 to build an actual in game "Safehold"?? Something that should take a while to make? Come on, that's WAY too cheap. $500 is minimum IMO. Even the casual players who shell out 100 bucks every run they do can get there in a year.

Plus let's be honest, if these things follow suit with all other transmutes they will sell for way less than their paper costs on the secondary market. Price it at $150 based on TG prices and they will sell for $100 or so, which at that point why even bother having that level.

Krym wrote: Is the .pdf link not working anymore? or is it just me?

Its not just you, I tried to get the latest PDF and the link gives me the 404 error.

Endgame wrote: I've been following the discord chat both between my close group of friends and the larger TD Fans discord. The reaction to safeholds isn't great, but that isn't being conveyed here.

Let me start with this:

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7 responses in a few minutes isn't a ton, but I think everyone is basically quite invested in TD - from players with multiple legendaries to volunteers.

Some select quotes that generated a lot of discussion:

Sorta disappointed that any discussion about the actual effects of the Safehold got ignored and it's just talking about pricing now...

We have gone down the path of effectively slotless bonuses. What discussion of effects really matters? How broken the bonuses are?

I wanted safeholds to be primarily an out-of-game benefit with zero power creep. TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I would be somewhat okay with small, incremental, yet expensive power creep (i.e. mythic is to legendary as legendary is to relic). TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I don't know what to even suggest anymore, because dithering over individual token powers feels like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic

yeah, I thought they were going to be something different, not just another few new slots with the same old +stats. This is the most convoluted way of just saying "expensive new slots to unlock"

Safeholds are just a symptom of a philosophy of not caring about sustainability. Too many of the arguments are just so repetitive, and the focus is in the wrong place. I see an agreement on what players want posted here, then we just keep getting the same stuff that widens the gap between starting numbers (including treasure) and next year numbers.

you know, this is the medal slot all over again times 10

These quotes are all tied to the fatalism that we have a huge slot creep / expansion - the thing that lots of people in the original ideas thread didn't want, including myself.

I'm editing this as a go, because I can't devote large blocks of time to this. I care very much about getting this right, so I've blown a large portion of a holiday day off work following the discussion.

I'm happy to provide guided feedback, but that is extremely challenging given the current status. Do I give feedback on a quickly changing set of new slots with new tokens to represent the entourage now following me through a dungeon? Do I give feedback on the cost of doing so? What about mythic stuff that is a huge can of worms?

Good set of quotes. I'm wondering if any of the people that are unhappy with the current Safehold program will decide not to pursue a Safehold. I'm guessing most of them still will. Not that I don't share a lot of the same concerns, but if you look at the surge in power creep and new slots/slot expanders over the last few years it tells me (right or wrong) TD isn't too concerned about it. So you either ride the wave or jump ship.

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote: I've been following the discord chat both between my close group of friends and the larger TD Fans discord. The reaction to safeholds isn't great, but that isn't being conveyed here.

Let me start with this:

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.

7 responses in a few minutes isn't a ton, but I think everyone is basically quite invested in TD - from players with multiple legendaries to volunteers.

Some select quotes that generated a lot of discussion:

Sorta disappointed that any discussion about the actual effects of the Safehold got ignored and it's just talking about pricing now...

We have gone down the path of effectively slotless bonuses. What discussion of effects really matters? How broken the bonuses are?

I wanted safeholds to be primarily an out-of-game benefit with zero power creep. TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I would be somewhat okay with small, incremental, yet expensive power creep (i.e. mythic is to legendary as legendary is to relic). TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I don't know what to even suggest anymore, because dithering over individual token powers feels like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic

yeah, I thought they were going to be something different, not just another few new slots with the same old +stats. This is the most convoluted way of just saying "expensive new slots to unlock"

Safeholds are just a symptom of a philosophy of not caring about sustainability. Too many of the arguments are just so repetitive, and the focus is in the wrong place. I see an agreement on what players want posted here, then we just keep getting the same stuff that widens the gap between starting numbers (including treasure) and next year numbers.

you know, this is the medal slot all over again times 10

These quotes are all tied to the fatalism that we have a huge slot creep / expansion - the thing that lots of people in the original ideas thread didn't want, including myself.

I'm editing this as a go, because I can't devote large blocks of time to this. I care very much about getting this right, so I've blown a large portion of a holiday day off work following the discussion.

I'm happy to provide guided feedback, but that is extremely challenging given the current status. Do I give feedback on a quickly changing set of new slots with new tokens to represent the entourage now following me through a dungeon? Do I give feedback on the cost of doing so? What about mythic stuff that is a huge can of worms?

Good set of quotes. I'm wondering if any of the people that are unhappy with the current Safehold program will decide not to pursue a Safehold. I'm guessing most of them still will. Not that I don't share a lot of the same concerns, but if you look at the surge in power creep and new slots/slot expanders over the last few years it tells me (right or wrong) TD isn't too concerned about it. So you either ride the wave or jump ship.

On the plus side, if I jump ship and stop buying, I should be able to play NM for a really long time before I’m creeped out of completing a run. I’ll have even longer before I can’t compete a hardcore run.