TOPIC: Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please!

I think the recipe should be more generic, that just seems way too specific. As it’s designed it’s not going to help remove excess tokens, it’s just going to make the current problems worse. Instead of specific tokens making it more like the maps and just say
80x if any Trade 1
10x of any trade 2
2x Golden Fleece

Less worry about recipe upkeep from year to year. Lets people get rid of excess tokens. Will help balance the trade tokens.

David Zych wrote: ...

To paint an alternative picture, suppose that requirement were removed. You would still need to build a Safehold II/I to get Mystic Transmuter tokens to *make* Mythic tokens, but once that's accomplished you would also have the option to:

1. loan Mythic tokens to any player on the same run
2. sell/trade Mythic tokens to any player on the secondary market
3. sell/trade Mythic Transmuter tokens to any player on the secondary market

rather than only being able to do those things in cases where the recipient also has (or can borrow) a Safehold II/I.

In addition to feeling more on-theme, it seems to me that these additional options would make building Safeholds even more attractive to those with means.

To add on to this picture, it's the exact kind of behavior that made me crazy for TD in the first place. I went on the very last run of my first GenCon and someone came in with a entire film roll of Charms of Avarice and just said "Everyone gets max treasure this run." The rest of us were largely new players. That gesture of kindness gave me a goal to emulate, and I got hooked ever since.

Impy wrote: I very much like where the mecanics are going to, especially Mythic Avarice. However I think if Safehold V is meant for everyone to be able to approach it costs need to come down at least 50%, its more expensive than relics. It will not help new players get into the transmuting system as it is.

Based on recent auctions the price to make a safehold is $387.06

If you want new players to join in, I'd say you want to aim for sub $200.00, maybe even $150 especially since other transmutes still cost money

I had been under the impression the first couple tiers were aimed at being fairly accessible, but if the starting point is basically at relic cost then I guess I must have been mistaken.

=== LOOK HERE ===

New files uploaded with corrections. See Post #1 for new links. Thanks.

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The slotless power level of any of the followers / hirelings / etc exceeds basically anything previously released short of Eldrich or dragon orbs. Relic price is incredibly cheap compared to something like Auril’s candle / Harlax lamp

I'm actually OK with the costs on Safehold V. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me for it to be around a Relic amount of cost.

Jeff Martin wrote: === LOOK HERE ===

New files uploaded with corrections. See Post #1 for new links. Thanks.

=== LOOK HERE ===

Haha you fixed Underling Steward in the first PDF but it’s also in the second PDF and needs to be changed XD

Endgame wrote: Instead of followers, etc, could we focus on one cool journeyman that grows over time without Just buffing my stats?

For example, let me get an initiate Cleric at safehold 5. Maybe he casts Bless in one room as an instant action (roughly UR power level), and then upgrade him to apprentice at safehold IV and now he also adds 20 Healing once / game (similar to FoP Phoenix). Finally at safehold 3, my Cleric becomes journeyman and can make attacks if there isn’t a Cleric in the party (or some other cool ability).


It would hook me much more to get a role play kick out if my follower that maybe even adds something special to a double down run, than just a stack of generic slotless boosts.

I really like Endgame's idea here and think it is important. Right now, having up to 6 slotless hirelings / underlings / followers feels really bloated and powerful. I think it'd make a lot better design both power-wise and aesthetic-wise if instead there was a single slot for a follower that could get more powerful as you upgrade the Safehold.

The link to the new token images is broken.

General feedback:

1. I am not keen on more slot expanders in general.
2. I do agree the recipes could do with being more generic.
3. If the goal of the recipes is to drain trade goods, I think they should focus more heavily on fleece than they do. That is the biggest, sinkless, glut we have.
4. I understand where you are coming from with the "under construction" token thematically, but I personally would just prefer to handwave the theme and not have the extra "send this token back in" step.
5. I am not sure if much thought has been given to this, but it seems to me that the hirelings etc are tradeable. I assume that the intention is that you can only equip a hireling if you also have your Safehold equipped. However, if so, that should probably be clearly stated on the token.
6. Are the safeholds intended to be tradeable?

Edit: 7 I also like Endgame's idea about there being one single follower slot.

David Zych wrote: I still have all the same concerns I had before, so I won't reiterate them, but will just offer one new (to me) thought:

Requiring players to have a Safehold II/I in order to equip Mythic tokens is a substantial departure from current practice, because it makes them much harder to loan to other players on a run (let alone buy/sell/trade on the secondary market).

I'm sure you must have thought about this, but in today's world it's pretty cool that you can build a LFM adventuring party of people with mixed means, and then help even out the gaps by loaning around some UR/relic/legendary tokens. It's also pretty cool that an individual player who might not be able to afford lots of relics and legendaries can still save up for and either make or buy just that *one* really special token they have their eye on. Those things won't be possible for Mythic tokens as written; if a player just wants to go after their one dream token and not the entire entourage of twelve drummers drumming and seven slots a-swimming, they're out of luck because the one token isn't usable without their own uber-expensive Safehold II/I.

To paint an alternative picture, suppose that requirement were removed. You would still need to build a Safehold II/I to get Mystic Transmuter tokens to *make* Mythic tokens, but once that's accomplished you would also have the option to:

1. loan Mythic tokens to any player on the same run
2. sell/trade Mythic tokens to any player on the secondary market
3. sell/trade Mythic Transmuter tokens to any player on the secondary market

rather than only being able to do those things in cases where the recipient also has (or can borrow) a Safehold II/I.

In addition to feeling more on-theme, it seems to me that these additional options would make building Safeholds even more attractive to those with means.

I actually like the requirement to have a Safehold I/II to equipment Mythic tokens. Otherwise I think we'd quickly just get back to people getting 10 of the Mythic Avarice and loaning them out on their runs (often for a cut). That's still possible for someone to do of course, but it would require them to get 10 Safehold I tokens. I also like that the requirement to have a Safehold encourages people to transmute a variety of Mythic tokens instead of just 10 Avarice tokens.

Flik wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: === LOOK HERE ===

New files uploaded with corrections. See Post #1 for new links. Thanks.

=== LOOK HERE ===

Haha you fixed Underling Steward in the first PDF but it’s also in the second PDF and needs to be changed XD

Check in 5 minutes!

I like that you added "Safehold V Under Construction" token to the required recipe for "Safehold V". I think "Hireling Steward" needs to be added to the Hireling recipe though.

I still think the recipe is a bit rich for new players given how much is needed between the tower and the actual hireling...BUT...I'm not the boss, lol.

Exciting stuff!