TOPIC: Safehold Program Details - Feedback Please!

What I think would be really cool is if in addition to people (Hirelings, followers, etc.) you were able to construct various resource generating structures inside your Safehold. Give me a path to a Darkwood Mill that generates Plank over time, a Loom that generates Silk, etc. And then once a year when you finish a run TD adds in the amount of Trade Goods that your structures generated over the past year to your Pulls. A path to upgrade these structures would also be cool. Maybe a Darkwood Mill V Token to start eventually ending in a Darkwood Mill I. And so on.

Endgame wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote: I've been following the discord chat both between my close group of friends and the larger TD Fans discord. The reaction to safeholds isn't great, but that isn't being conveyed here.

Let me start with this:

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7 responses in a few minutes isn't a ton, but I think everyone is basically quite invested in TD - from players with multiple legendaries to volunteers.

Some select quotes that generated a lot of discussion:

Sorta disappointed that any discussion about the actual effects of the Safehold got ignored and it's just talking about pricing now...

We have gone down the path of effectively slotless bonuses. What discussion of effects really matters? How broken the bonuses are?

I wanted safeholds to be primarily an out-of-game benefit with zero power creep. TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I would be somewhat okay with small, incremental, yet expensive power creep (i.e. mythic is to legendary as legendary is to relic). TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I don't know what to even suggest anymore, because dithering over individual token powers feels like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic

yeah, I thought they were going to be something different, not just another few new slots with the same old +stats. This is the most convoluted way of just saying "expensive new slots to unlock"

Safeholds are just a symptom of a philosophy of not caring about sustainability. Too many of the arguments are just so repetitive, and the focus is in the wrong place. I see an agreement on what players want posted here, then we just keep getting the same stuff that widens the gap between starting numbers (including treasure) and next year numbers.

you know, this is the medal slot all over again times 10

These quotes are all tied to the fatalism that we have a huge slot creep / expansion - the thing that lots of people in the original ideas thread didn't want, including myself.

I'm editing this as a go, because I can't devote large blocks of time to this. I care very much about getting this right, so I've blown a large portion of a holiday day off work following the discussion.

I'm happy to provide guided feedback, but that is extremely challenging given the current status. Do I give feedback on a quickly changing set of new slots with new tokens to represent the entourage now following me through a dungeon? Do I give feedback on the cost of doing so? What about mythic stuff that is a huge can of worms?

Good set of quotes. I'm wondering if any of the people that are unhappy with the current Safehold program will decide not to pursue a Safehold. I'm guessing most of them still will. Not that I don't share a lot of the same concerns, but if you look at the surge in power creep and new slots/slot expanders over the last few years it tells me (right or wrong) TD isn't too concerned about it. So you either ride the wave or jump ship.

On the plus side, if I jump ship and stop buying, I should be able to play NM for a really long time before I’m creeped out of completing a run. I’ll have even longer before I can’t compete a hardcore run.

I haven't changed my current NM build in almost 4 years and I can still survive it just fine. The year I decide to jump ship (if it ever comes) is the year I buy a new motorcycle. I get tempted every spring...

Endgame wrote: Are safeholds the tipping point that pushes some people to just quit buying? Probably not, but it's hard to say. In retrospect I can name the points where several other games I've played collapsed, but given TD is a team game, and the in person dungeon experience is awesome so it's different than other games.

Personally, I'm going to keep buying. Our Barbarian died twice and our fighter once in Room 7 on our run this past weekend and I'm looking to avoid a repeat even though thanks to the party's wonderful Cleric they both came back swinging each time. It's just that having a budget means carefully picking what adds the most buff for the buck, and I see better deals out there than spending roughly $500 worth of trade goods/GF/GP to get the beginning Safehold and one Hireling. Though I admit that someone with shinier tokens filling every slot will have a different calculus for a slotless buff.

Endgame wrote: I've been following the discord chat both between my close group of friends and the larger TD Fans discord. The reaction to safeholds isn't great, but that isn't being conveyed here.

Let me start with this:

This image is hidden for guests.
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7 responses in a few minutes isn't a ton, but I think everyone is basically quite invested in TD - from players with multiple legendaries to volunteers.

Some select quotes that generated a lot of discussion:

Sorta disappointed that any discussion about the actual effects of the Safehold got ignored and it's just talking about pricing now...

We have gone down the path of effectively slotless bonuses. What discussion of effects really matters? How broken the bonuses are?

I wanted safeholds to be primarily an out-of-game benefit with zero power creep. TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I would be somewhat okay with small, incremental, yet expensive power creep (i.e. mythic is to legendary as legendary is to relic). TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I don't know what to even suggest anymore, because dithering over individual token powers feels like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic

yeah, I thought they were going to be something different, not just another few new slots with the same old +stats. This is the most convoluted way of just saying "expensive new slots to unlock"

Safeholds are just a symptom of a philosophy of not caring about sustainability. Too many of the arguments are just so repetitive, and the focus is in the wrong place. I see an agreement on what players want posted here, then we just keep getting the same stuff that widens the gap between starting numbers (including treasure) and next year numbers.

you know, this is the medal slot all over again times 10

These quotes are all tied to the fatalism that we have a huge slot creep / expansion - the thing that lots of people in the original ideas thread didn't want, including myself.

I'm editing this as a go, because I can't devote large blocks of time to this. I care very much about getting this right, so I've blown a large portion of a holiday day off work following the discussion.

I'm happy to provide guided feedback, but that is extremely challenging given the current status. Do I give feedback on a quickly changing set of new slots with new tokens to represent the entourage now following me through a dungeon? Do I give feedback on the cost of doing so? What about mythic stuff that is a huge can of worms?

+2. I don’t know what percentage of the community is on discord, but it clearly has been quite the conversation

Rob F wrote: What I think would be really cool is if in addition to people (Hirelings, followers, etc.) you were able to construct various resource generating structures inside your Safehold. Give me a path to a Darkwood Mill that generates Plank over time, a Loom that generates Silk, etc. And then once a year when you finish a run TD adds in the amount of Trade Goods that your structures generated over the past year to your Pulls. A path to upgrade these structures would also be cool. Maybe a Darkwood Mill V Token to start eventually ending in a Darkwood Mill I. And so on.

I tried to dance around it, but what I want is the game to be cheaper to play. Thus my suggesting td.events credit. This program is the opposite, which doesn't remotely surprise me.

Still vastly more on board with TG production because it at least pretends to address something that I care about.

I don't need more numbers. More numbers are boring. If wanted to come up with some complex land management system in a virtual world, I would find that vastly more appealing than "Here's +2 to something, here's another slot so that you can get +3 to something, here are better versions than your rarest tokens that add +3 to something." Even more problematic than my personal interest in variety over magnitude is that greater magnitude just keeps widening a gulf between players' builds' numbers, which leads to things like not knowing who is supposed to be playing Hardcore or NM or whatever.

Ideas like this are grasped at by players who view it as opportunity to catch up, but it's just the opposite. Anything that makes builds better at winning is more likely to be attained by the players who are already the best at winning.

I'm all for a Mythic difficulty level. Now. With my builds that I view as appropriate for Epic Double Downs or solo NM, where might actually feel a need to both optimize a build and *gasp* use consumables on a run. Don't need better builds, just a desire to actually feel challenged without self-hobbling oneself.

Endgame wrote: I've been following the discord chat both between my close group of friends and the larger TD Fans discord. The reaction to safeholds isn't great, but that isn't being conveyed here.

Let me start with this:

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.

7 responses in a few minutes isn't a ton, but I think everyone is basically quite invested in TD - from players with multiple legendaries to volunteers.

Some select quotes that generated a lot of discussion:

Sorta disappointed that any discussion about the actual effects of the Safehold got ignored and it's just talking about pricing now...

We have gone down the path of effectively slotless bonuses. What discussion of effects really matters? How broken the bonuses are?

I wanted safeholds to be primarily an out-of-game benefit with zero power creep. TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I would be somewhat okay with small, incremental, yet expensive power creep (i.e. mythic is to legendary as legendary is to relic). TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I don't know what to even suggest anymore, because dithering over individual token powers feels like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic

yeah, I thought they were going to be something different, not just another few new slots with the same old +stats. This is the most convoluted way of just saying "expensive new slots to unlock"

Safeholds are just a symptom of a philosophy of not caring about sustainability. Too many of the arguments are just so repetitive, and the focus is in the wrong place. I see an agreement on what players want posted here, then we just keep getting the same stuff that widens the gap between starting numbers (including treasure) and next year numbers.

you know, this is the medal slot all over again times 10

These quotes are all tied to the fatalism that we have a huge slot creep / expansion - the thing that lots of people in the original ideas thread didn't want, including myself.

I'm editing this as a go, because I can't devote large blocks of time to this. I care very much about getting this right, so I've blown a large portion of a holiday day off work following the discussion.

I'm happy to provide guided feedback, but that is extremely challenging given the current status. Do I give feedback on a quickly changing set of new slots with new tokens to represent the entourage now following me through a dungeon? Do I give feedback on the cost of doing so? What about mythic stuff that is a huge can of worms?

Gotta +1 this.

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote:

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Good set of quotes. I'm wondering if any of the people that are unhappy with the current Safehold program will decide not to pursue a Safehold. I'm guessing most of them still will. Not that I don't share a lot of the same concerns, but if you look at the surge in power creep and new slots/slot expanders over the last few years it tells me (right or wrong) TD isn't too concerned about it. So you either ride the wave or jump ship.

I will definitely *not* pursue a Safehold if they look anything like the current draft.

I play TD because the game is fun, and I buy URs and craft relics/legendaries to the extent that the abilities they grant make the game more fun. This proposed level of power creep doesn't make the game more fun for me, it would make the game less fun (by making it more difficult to find a cohort of people with compatible build levels to adventure with).

It's true there have been a lot of slot expanders over the last few years, but nearly all of those have been PYPs. I did (just in the last month) craft Luna's, because I had saved up the resources and decided that particular transmute was worth it to me, but that's only two extra charm slots compared to somebody who stopped at UR Charm Bracelets, and while 9 charms is more powerful than 7 charms, it's not game-breakingly more powerful.

Six lackey slots, a Mythic Totem of Avarice that frees up TE slots, a future mythic token "consolidating many slot expanders into one token", and a stackable +1 level are game-breakingly more powerful. Even 20% of that might be game-breakingly more powerful.

I'll still buy tickets and play the game as long as the dungeons are cool, but I'll be a lot less excited about spending money to collect new tokens if this is where things are headed.

I agree with all the sentiments of Endgames post. This seems like a net negative change for the game and has caused several people I play with question if they want to continue.

The price of higher level character builds has driven away almost everyone I’ve introduced to the game, this is going to make it worse.

Endgame wrote: I've been following the discord chat both between my close group of friends and the larger TD Fans discord. The reaction to safeholds isn't great, but that isn't being conveyed here.

Let me start with this:

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.

7 responses in a few minutes isn't a ton, but I think everyone is basically quite invested in TD - from players with multiple legendaries to volunteers.

Some select quotes that generated a lot of discussion:

Sorta disappointed that any discussion about the actual effects of the Safehold got ignored and it's just talking about pricing now...

We have gone down the path of effectively slotless bonuses. What discussion of effects really matters? How broken the bonuses are?

I wanted safeholds to be primarily an out-of-game benefit with zero power creep. TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I would be somewhat okay with small, incremental, yet expensive power creep (i.e. mythic is to legendary as legendary is to relic). TPTB doesn't seem interested in that. I don't know what to even suggest anymore, because dithering over individual token powers feels like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic

yeah, I thought they were going to be something different, not just another few new slots with the same old +stats. This is the most convoluted way of just saying "expensive new slots to unlock"

Safeholds are just a symptom of a philosophy of not caring about sustainability. Too many of the arguments are just so repetitive, and the focus is in the wrong place. I see an agreement on what players want posted here, then we just keep getting the same stuff that widens the gap between starting numbers (including treasure) and next year numbers.

you know, this is the medal slot all over again times 10

These quotes are all tied to the fatalism that we have a huge slot creep / expansion - the thing that lots of people in the original ideas thread didn't want, including myself.

I'm editing this as a go, because I can't devote large blocks of time to this. I care very much about getting this right, so I've blown a large portion of a holiday day off work following the discussion.

I'm happy to provide guided feedback, but that is extremely challenging given the current status. Do I give feedback on a quickly changing set of new slots with new tokens to represent the entourage now following me through a dungeon? Do I give feedback on the cost of doing so? What about mythic stuff that is a huge can of worms?

Someone call me the Enchanter's Whetstone, because I'm giving a +1 to this. I'd much rather see the "lackeys" pared down to one slot, where the follower can improve with each level of safehold, perhaps giving a small class feature (like flank 1/game or re-slide 1/game or such) at level 3 as like a "dilettante" if people want to mix it up from just number bonuses.

I had a small novel ready, but lost it to dumb user error. I'll try to elaborate more tomorrow, but going to keep it quick* for now.

* +100 to everything endgame said.
* My regular group of 10-15 wants to play mythic, epic is already often too easy (depending on the module/room 7). More power creep won't solve this and almost no one in our group is excited about the current safeholds. We are more likely to play a hyper lethal challenge with our current builds.
* Secondary market shouldn't drive decisions, but ~$500 plus an unknown amount in future years makes it really hard to want to buy in anyways
* Omni stuff is amazing and actually bridges the new player gap.
* The concept of a Safehold and progression is really cool, but the current mechanics aren't landing for us. We know the team is passionate about this and we do appreciate the work you put in, so this feedback is with that in mind
* Please please please give us breadth instead of more numbers. I'd love to be able to throw a sticker on my character card that makes me an Abjurer with great defensive spells and things that grant retribution and covers up my level 2 spells. I'd love to be an exotic weapons master fighter that gets a token that slides in a different way. I'd love to truly be a wild shape druid, giving up all of my spells to be able to take different forms that can adapt to combat, or a frenzied berserker. I would put stupid amounts of trade goods into something that lets me say "**this** wizard is ini, and no others have decided to build the same set of customizations I did." Right now, my wizard looks like every other epic wizard, and the Safehold just makes the numbers go up.

These are the types of things that make me interested in buying into multiple classes and playing multiple times each weekend. I'm allergic to gacha games where "number go up" is the core feature. It's deeply unsatisfying.


* For some definitions of quick

I generally agree with Endgame and ini in that this does not feel like a good direction for the game to me at all. I was both surprised and disappointed to see this announced with much fanfare this year instead of the much delayed, and much needed, class card redesign.

Getting a 404 error for the details document link on post 1, switched from 4 to 5 in the URL and got what I think is the latest.

Edit: I read back a few pages and someone had already comment on this, sorry to duplicate.