TOPIC: Reprint requests of any rarity for 2024

We can easily get down a hare hole on damage output, but here are average damage per round for barbarian and monk from same team on two team runs of same dungeon:

Run1: barbarian 89/rd; monk 95/rd.
Run3: barbarian 81/rd; monk 103/rd.

Now, the philosophies on the builds may have been different, but it's two people with similar collections playing at Epic. Barbarian had two misses in essentially 25 rounds of combat (did ranged attacks two rounds due to dungeon, three total misses in 26 rounds). Monk had the equivalent of six misses in 26 rounds of combat as didn't track whether round damage was two hits or one crit.

My view of typical high end builds: Barbarian is about 80 normal damage and Furies a couple of time. Monk is about 55 per attack (so about 110 damage if both hit). Monk will Stun at times.

Jason Brown wrote:

Iross wrote: 3 rounds seems like a reasonable benchmark, but when you say Rogue are in the top 3, which classes are you placing below them out of Monk, Ranger and Barbarian? This also assumes that Rogues will always slide a crit, which is very much not the case in VTD and sometimes not the case in physical runs due to missing, being bumped off a number, etc - the other classes simply need to slide a hit, which is much more consistent.

I'm also very curious what the damage output rankings are like. I play a Barbarian with a few legendaries, and the Monks I run with are usually doing more damage with each hand, with a higher chance of crit and a chance for stun. So, the Monk is doing more than DOUBLE the damage of the Barbarian on nearly every round of nearly every combat. I can't see how that's not broken.

Monk and Ranger are totally broken. I've suggested for years that they should only be able to add their bonus combat damage to one attack per round - or maybe have it be a pool to divide among the two attacks (if both hit) as they choose. Since the vast majority of the damage at higher builds is bonus damage, letting them have double bonus damage seems quite broken. This isn't the thread for that discussion though.

Would be nice to get more Charm of Awakened synergies out there. I feel like I contribute “less” to the group only have a normal Charm of Synergy.

I'd love to see (no particular order)
FoP Owl, Dragon, Tortoise, Cat (obv. Not all at once, 1-2/yr)
+2 assassin's crossbow
Cabal set (or updated additional pieces)
Greater holy symbol of pelor
Rouge pieces feel like 2025, cycle ekdtars, libram, +2 rod.
Viper strike belt
Carter's tome
Goggles of Instant Analysis (maybe 2025)

Charm of Enlightenment
Potion Leaping Attack (know I'll get some detractors)

Footman Set

I do NOT think we should be reprinting relics (as previously stated by Jeff). I'd be fine with alternative, very similar relics.

I've run with multiple Monks getting 70+ damage per hand, usually with at least 1 or 2 crits per run (which does double damage PLUS stun, if the monster even survives that amount of damage). Because of Gloves of the Flying Fist (I think), their missile stats are identical to their melee stats. And, at Nightmare level, they probably won't miss one single time on the average run.

My Barbarian, even raging, might get 70 (total) on a good round. He usually goes an entire run with no crits (only crits on 20) and totally sucks at missile attacks. He usually hits in melee at NM level, but not every time. Yes, Fury is very nice, but that's only two attacks per run, and only with a legendary class item.

Mike Steele wrote: Monk and Ranger are totally broken. I've suggested for years that they should only be able to add their bonus combat damage to one attack per round - or maybe have it be a pool to divide among the two attacks (if both hit) as they choose. Since the vast majority of the damage at higher builds is bonus damage, letting them have double bonus damage seems quite broken. This isn't the thread for that discussion though.

Agreed. Adding double bonus damage is the thing that makes it so severely broken. It wasn't an issue in 2007, but it's gotten progressively worse over the years as bonus damage has escalated beyond godlike levels.

Also, this is probably not the place for that discussion, but, in thinking of new tokens, it really needs to be taken into account, since we need to do as much as possible not to make the problem even worse.

Jason Brown wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Monk and Ranger are totally broken. I've suggested for years that they should only be able to add their bonus combat damage to one attack per round - or maybe have it be a pool to divide among the two attacks (if both hit) as they choose. Since the vast majority of the damage at higher builds is bonus damage, letting them have double bonus damage seems quite broken. This isn't the thread for that discussion though.

Agreed. Adding double bonus damage is the thing that makes it so severely broken. It wasn't an issue in 2007, but it's gotten progressively worse over the years as bonus damage has escalated beyond godlike levels.

Also, this is probably not the place for that discussion, but, in thinking of new tokens, it really needs to be taken into account, since we need to do as much as possible not to make the problem even worse.

If the Monk and Ranger classes aren't modified to have bonus damage only once per round, maybe some (like maybe half of them) future tokens giving bonus damage should be modified to exclude Ranger and Monk, or state that they can only be applied to one attack per round.

Personally, I love seeing my Monk and Ranger TEAMMATES doing lots of damage.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Personally, I love seeing my Monk and Ranger TEAMMATES doing lots of damage.

I'm not jealous of them. I get that it's a team effort. It's just that having one class that regularly does double the damage of the other fighting classes (Fighter, Dwarf, Paladin, Barbarian) is what's driving module development. If a nightmare monster doesn't have 1000+ hp, then it's going to be trivial for a group with a Monk and a Ranger, but it may be impossible for a similarly-equipped group with a Fighter, Dwarf, and Paladin, because their average damage output is less than half as much. And, it's not just that Monks and Rangers have limited special powers or special attacks (like Rogue's sneak attack) driving that huge amount of damage. It's generally every round of every combat. Like, stunning is a neat effect. Why is the only class able to do that also the the class that's regularly doing 100+ damage per round with at least double the chances of getting a crit? It's broken and needs to be fixed.

I concede your points.

Barbarian amd rogue can come very close to Ranger and Monk.

Dwarf and Paladin are (unfortunately) primarily defensive classes.

Fighter is (allegedly) a "newbie" class.

That said, I've fine if all damage bonuses (melee, ranged, spell) only applied to one hit per round.

Maybe there should be a fair amount of "common" items reprinted at the Common/Uncommon/Rare level. Looking at it from an app/web development standpoint in order to minimize the number of new Tokens they have to enter (and we have to scroll through when building a character). Maybe every year there's a "Short Sword" and a "Shield" and so forth. Change the art but keep the Token name identical.

I'd like to see FOP: Panther and Assassins Crossbow both are hard to find and crazy expensive when you do.