TOPIC: Safehold Program Thoughts?

i just can't see TD wanting to keep track of a lot of things. i would imagine, as pointed out by Skylar, this is a really bad potential nightmare. i would also imagine JMartin doesn't want or need that headache. do we, as a community, want to take his attention away from the quality of the adventures? simple is our friend.

Endgame wrote: What standard pack rare is so powerful that it’s in a UR+ build? What standard pack rare is so expensive you could justify a transmute to obtain it over just buying it on the secondary market.

If a future Rare would be so powerful as to be worth the transmute cost, we need to seriously look at the token dev process to prevent creep.

Charm of Enlightenment comes to mind.

The idea I've liked best, so far, is that Safeholds produce some gold and trade goods periodically.

I would love to see some sort of online bank, so we're not always giving the US postal service quite so much business and quite so many hernias. Seems like, if such a system were in place, it would be fairly simple to bank virtual trade goods for people getting condensed and super-condensed token orders. Yes, of course, someone at TD would need to make it and maintain it, but the benefits might outweigh the costs. You could access your bank balance for mail-in transmutes, but not for in-person transmutes. Thus, any extra effort only really applies in the off-season.

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Kusig wrote:

David Zych wrote: As someone who maintains both NM/Epic and Normal builds for 11 classes to ensure that I'm always prepared for any PUG run, and is sufficiently lawful-good IRL to faithfully obey the Gotta Bring Em All rule, I love the idea of anything that would make in-person play more convenient.

I'll differ from Jamie's example by saying that I personally would be just fine with *excluding* TEs from this, since in practice TEs are the one thing that actually does need to get verified regularly. A safehold that officially permits me to equip non-consumable non-TE tokens I own without having to carry them would be very appealing. Higher levels could grant higher rarity (C/UC/R, then 3*/4*, then UR, etc)

+1 to not having to carry boatloads of tokens through the Dungeon. I would however not want Safeholds to replace physically having tokens or using TD as a bank of sorts since that can get into a logistical nightmare. Much like we have an honor system now for VTD Safehold could enable that to some extend in PTD. Where if I have a safehold I don't have to bring my non TE on the dungeon run itself (notable exceptions being if I plan to use a subclass and need it to be validated). Could there be potential abuse from players by this? Yes but the same is true for VTD in its current state.

Obviously, you would need to bring your TE / Weapon / Consumables you were planning to use on the run along with anything that enables them to be used without being turned in.

I mean, if this was really something desirable, how about this:
Each level of safehold costs appx a legendary to transmute.
Level I: The owner of this safehold token is presumed to own all common tokens, and does not need to carry them through the dungeon.
Level II: The owner of this safehold token gains the benefit of Safehold I and is presumed to own all uncommon tokens, and does not need to carry them through the dungeon.
Level III: The owner of this safehold token gains the benefit of Safehold II and is presumed to own all rare tokens, and does not need to carry them through the dungeon.
Level IV: The owner of this safehold token gains the benefit of Safehold III and trade goods may be deposited directly into the safe hold and the owner may withdraw trade goods from the safehold by using the safehold number on the transmute form.

It seems like presuming someone owns all of a particular rarity of token eliminates the need for that person to ever buy tokens of that rarity again, and would give them ownership of valuable older tokens of that rarity. That seems counter-productive for True Dungeon.

For purposes of collectors, they still have a reason to chase down the old tokens. And if it is limited to non-consumable 10-pack tokens, there is still a need to hunt down consumables, completion, and volunteer tokens. But for people that just want the ability to equip an old token from a 10-pack without possibly spending more on shipping than the token is worth, this opens up a simple benefit.

Honestly, this is one of the few ideas I've heard of that seems like it would benefit both newer players as well as people that have been around a while. While I have no problem paying for older tokens, I just hate the bookkeeping involved in keeping track of them. I started a few years ago just putting an onyx C/UC/R set aside so that I could tell myself with certainty that I had at least one of each from that year (I might accidentally mulch other colors, but I can be pretty sure I won't accidentally mulch an onyx). Just in case they came in handy for a theme run later on.

As far as "eliminates the need for that person to ever buy tokens of that rarity again. That seems counter-productive for True Dungeon.", True Dungeon doesn't let you buy individual tokens anyways, so you'll need to explain how this hurts TD. If the safeholds are individually priced at the costs of Legendaries (and are not time-limited), then there's still going to be a need for trade goods and the tokens that go into making the trade goods. And people would still need to buy tokens going forward to make future transmutes.

I like the idea of having trade tokens "stored" in the Safehold (or even that they become fully virtual). Is there some burden for TD to keep track of the holdings? Yes. Is it better than having transmutes that require a lot of counting, tons of extra shipping to and from TD, etc.? I would think so.

I'm not sure if I like the idea that we "presume" that someone owns C/UC/R, at least if it's retroactive. Let's face it, the "logical" choice would be to go fully virtual for all tokens. No need to haul them around, no need to show them, easy to track and trade (assuming TD set up something online). No need to ship tokens to TD for transmutes or for TD to ship back. No hassles with manufacturing and shipping the tokens. More time for token design. Easier to correct for errata.

But, of course, many like to have a physical token. Going virtual would end a lot of online token businesses (and end the crafting of token holders of various kinds). And you wouldn't have the thrill of getting immediate physical treasure (although a code that allows a virtual pull would still be possible).

I think dipping the feet in the water for trade goods is a good balance to start. Those are the bulkiest, aren't really needed for the thrill of treasure pulls, etc. It also goes nicely with the concept of generating some trade goods in the Safehold (perhaps based on holdings in the Safehold).

I think having the safeholds generate more trade goods or GP is a lot more potentially harmful to the token economy than something that would cut into some C/UC/R sales. An interest-generating item like that would be abused, and as we've seen with treasure maps, people will game the system to get around any potential caps you try to put into place. And I'd expect that to become more of an issue if it was for a known quantity like X trade goods or Y GP instead of the unknown of spinning the wheel again with additional treasure draws.

Also, keep in mind that not everyone is going to have Safeholds if we're talking about them being Legendary cost to craft. There are still going to be C/UC/R sales to the vast majority of players that haven't bought a single UR let alone a Legendary.

Another possibility is that Safeholds have no play relevant mechanical benefits. They can just be collectible and prestige markers. Have forum badges, td.events badges in some way on runs, and pins or whatever for in person runs to denote one's token accumulation prowess.

Every year or other year, there is an Adventure, limited to Safehold owners. The adventure would vary a bit from a regular dungeon, in that the rooms would focus more theme wise on the trials of land and structure ownership and maintenance.

in reading the first post, nowhere does it say gold. i would assume trade goods is inclusive though.

step 1. find a spot on a map and buy your land. as your safehold needs to grow, you can buy more land. this takes gold out of circulation and gives TD more to work with.

step 2. build your keep/tower/castle/citadel. this is where you spend your trade items and more gold.
- steel for nails and such.
- planks for walls.
- silk for ropes, tapestries, etc.
- ink for paint/dying whatever.
- other trade items used accordingly. i don't like the idea of required trade items "just because". make it relatable.

step 3. determine you primary source of income (it might depend on your location). after all, if you are in or near the mountains, you could have a nice little mining operation; or forests would get planks; or plains could get hides; jungle/swamp gets ingredients for oils. you get the idea.

step 4 start collecting trade items off the "land" under your sway. i don't want to even guess at numbers on this, nut it should not be alot.

step 5. hire guildsmen. these could be used to expand your fledgling start up. they don't work free, so you might have to pony up more stuff.

step 6. collect more stuff since you have increased your station/holdings. now you can start banking your trade items in the "bank". they can be drawn on for transmuting or trading or whatever saves postage. perhaps even sold for gold to other players.

step 7. declare your self king...at least until orcs overrun you.

I like the event driven thoughts: something to build towards for ring con/every TD special con going forward?

Alternatively:
Something that increases design space. I strongly agree with the concerns about power creep in general. I'd love to see it unlock unearthed arcana type class variants. One variant per tier or something that lets you build your own character a bit. I've pitched it elsewhere, but basic stickers would be a great way to change basic cards out.

I'm not a big fan of Safeholds having a separate convention/unique Dungeon of some sort. There is already a Patron Dungeon, and it seems like Patrons and people with Safeholds will largely be the same group of people.

Mike Steele wrote: I'm not a big fan of Safeholds having a separate convention/unique Dungeon of some sort. There is already a Patron Dungeon, and it seems like Patrons and people with Safeholds will largely be the same group of people.

i agree with this. i'm not sure what the benefits should be for the different levels of safehold. however, everyone should have the chance. the benefits should be marginally better for each level but, no benefit should be earth shattering.

- i bank 100 silk, so i get back 1 silk every other month as interest.
- my tower is in the mountains, so i mine 100gp every other month. i upgraded my tower to a keep, so now i get 100gp every month... or something like that.

- level 1 safe hold gets an extra treasure pull. level 2 gets 2 treasure pulls and so on. but a pin would need to be worn to verify, AND to upgrade, you have to turn in your pin.

just some ideas.