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TOPIC: 2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals

2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 16 hours ago #97

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Dergidan wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Jamie Campbell wrote: I think the boots are lackluster and no matter what, I see Bo4W escalating In Price as people contemplate the legendary vs a secondary Bo4W. Ultimately getting trade items sold and what not to cover that cost of Bo4W will be the new thing for the foot track (pun intend3d)

I think for TDHQ, the result is the same. They get sales as a result. Make no mistake 2023 sales are all about the shirts and more significantly the TE bead.

In which case, dramatically increase the recipe cost for the Arcanum shirt and decrease the cost of Vim’s to around Rolland’s price?


Increasing the cost of the multi-year transmutes (which are not timeless recipes) would price me out of bothering with those transmutes.

The increasing cost of relics has already got me thinking about quitting where I am and not improving my build any further.

Just doubling the Arcanum recipe to 2 of each trade good should be doable for most everyone, and if that increase allowed for a the occasional lower powered relic / legendary to come in at more attainable rates I think that would be a good trade in the long run.


It's odd that on the one hand you're advocating lower cost transmutes and on the other hand suggesting doubling the transmute cost for a transmute that is following the pattern clearly set by it's predecessors and already includes four URs.

I wasn't aware there was a precedent for Arcanum transmutes. Which token was that - I thought the shirt was the first in the set?

I'm advocating for transmute costs to be in line with token desirability and power. The multi year transmutes generally end up being the top of the power level and are comparatively inexpensive compared to new relics and legendaries. Boots of the 4 winds is still the top power item in the boots slot (at a creation cost substantially less than contemporary legendaries), and remains so even with a Vim's inbound. To create some kind of possibility build diversity, Vim's needs to come in at a reasonable price point (less than secondary market 4 winds, not not double secondary market 4 winds). In retrospect, 4 winds could have had 4x the TG transmute cost and it still would have been undercosted in relation to its power level.


The Shirt is the first Arcanum token, but it is preceded by the similar Eldritch multi-year tokens (Supreme Ring, BoFW, Kilt of Dungeonbane), as well as the Rod of Seven Parts and the Skull of Cavadar. They have all had the recipe of one each of the URs plus one each of the Trade Item Tokens. I think this should follow that precedent.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 16 hours ago #98

Mike Steele wrote: The Shirt is the first Arcanum token, but it is preceded by the similar Eldritch multi-year tokens (Supreme Ring, BoFW, Kilt of Dungeonbane), as well as the Rod of Seven Parts and the Skull of Cavadar. They have all had the recipe of one each of the URs plus one each of the Trade Item Tokens. I think this should follow that precedent.

That precedent is fine to follow if the purpose of the multi year transmutes is to reward players for sticking with the game for multiple years. However, under costing a token in this manner means that slot conflicting tokens need to have special considerations.

If the purpose of transmutes, including arcanum, is to just to increase token sales, then the multi year transmutes need to be substantially increased to make TG cost in line with token power. This also makes future balancing of legendaries within the same slots as multi year tokens easier.

This is yet another example of my question at the start of the thread.

What are the goals?
Without direction, player feedback and discussion will be scattershot and not as helpful as it could be.
Last edit: by Endgame.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 16 hours ago #99

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Lequinian wrote: Does anyone have a spreadsheet tracking TG costs by auction going back a few years (pre-pandemic)?

I have data for 2019, 2020 and 2021 (I got lazy about tracking the 2022s):

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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 16 hours ago #100

And, for reasons already posted, I don't see any reason for Arcanum to get grandfathered into recipes that came about when there were vastly fewer tokens in circulation.

Eldritch recipes became absurdly cheap for the rarity level that is the best in the game. The non-UR requirements are essentially irrelevant at 1x. Might as well just remove TG all together. Then, the recipe could easily include gold. Not like gold is "expensive" even if people complain about not having enough of it. If Eldritch didn't exist, the recipes for these tokens would look a lot like legendary recipes. The variance in requirements between the two is just absurdly vast.

Kilt shows what happens when people are "aware" enough that power tokens can be easily had (relative to vastly less powerful tokens).
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 15 hours ago #101

Ian Lee wrote: And, for reasons already posted, I don't see any reason for Arcanum to get grandfathered into recipes that came about when there were vastly fewer tokens in circulation.

Eldritch recipes became absurdly cheap for the rarity level that is the best in the game. The non-UR requirements are essentially irrelevant at 1x. Might as well just remove TG all together. Then, the recipe could easily include gold. Not like gold is "expensive" even if people complain about not having enough of it. If Eldritch didn't exist, the recipes for these tokens would look a lot like legendary recipes. The variance in requirements between the two is just absurdly vast.

Kilt shows what happens when people are "aware" enough that power tokens can be easily had (relative to vastly less powerful tokens).


You're making a generalization that isn't always accurate. The Kilt of Dungeonbane is readily available on the secondary market for what it cost to transmute, or less. If that recipe had been doubled, it would have cost significantly more to transmute than it's worth. The Arcanum Shirt looks to be much closer to the power level of the Kilt than it is to the Boots of the Four Winds, and it already has a more expensive recipe than the Kilt (four URs compared to three). The Arcanum Shirt doesn't compare to the BotFW at all, there will be FAR more Shirts transmuted than there were BoTFW, and the Shirt power level is way below that of the BoTFW.
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 15 hours ago #102

There will be far more Arcanum than BotFW because the playerbase is much more extensive at higher levels of play and more savvy about what matters.

The number of URs is irrelevant to the amount of TG or gold that should go into these recipes. Though, on a tangent, if someone wants to argue for removing URs from legendary recipes going forward, I'm all for that.

Given history, the Arcanum set bonus will end up better than the Eldritch, so shirt will be better as soon as there's a second Arcanum than BotFW.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 15 hours ago #103

NightGod wrote:

Lequinian wrote: Does anyone have a spreadsheet tracking TG costs by auction going back a few years (pre-pandemic)?

I have data for 2019, 2020 and 2021 (I got lazy about tracking the 2022s):

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Great job...ah the good old days when Minotaur Hide was $1.68.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 15 hours ago #104

I'd agree that with the arcanum set can come a new precedent. I wouldn't be opposed to 2 of each. Adding fleece could help the market as well.

With the announcement of Ring Con, I'd expect the price of rings to go up a bit.

Every legendary sells for less than the sum of its parts. Relics as well. At this point, it feels like if you just want the thing, buying it is far better (see recent Ebay Auctions as proof). If you have more than 50% of needed trade goods, then purchasing can be worth it.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 15 hours ago #105

I have the TG to make the relic boots, but I not enough to make the legendary. I run Paladin so the higher my AC the better I can protest the (usually) fragile wizard types.

The legendary boots seem pretty meh compared to almost every other legendary, so I doubt I will ever make them.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 14 hours ago #106

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: I'd agree that with the arcanum set can come a new precedent. I wouldn't be opposed to 2 of each. Adding fleece could help the market as well.

With the announcement of Ring Con, I'd expect the price of rings to go up a bit.

Every legendary sells for less than the sum of its parts. Relics as well. At this point, it feels like if you just want the thing, buying it is far better (see recent Ebay Auctions as proof). If you have more than 50% of needed trade goods, then purchasing can be worth it.


Wade, I missed this announcement. What is Ring Con, and when is it? Is it similar to Skull Con, the transmuted Ring gets you entry?
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 14 hours ago #107

Ian Lee wrote: There will be far more Arcanum than BotFW because the playerbase is much more extensive at higher levels of play and more savvy about what matters.

The number of URs is irrelevant to the amount of TG or gold that should go into these recipes. Though, on a tangent, if someone wants to argue for removing URs from legendary recipes going forward, I'm all for that.

Given history, the Arcanum set bonus will end up better than the Eldritch, so shirt will be better as soon as there's a second Arcanum than BotFW.


I think there is zero chance the Arcanum Shirt will be better/more valuable (I'm not sure which you were alluding to) than the BotFW, regardless of what the Arcanum Bonus is. The Shirt isn't nearly as powerful, and there will be far far more of them than BotFW. The Eldritch bonuses were pretty great, I'd be surprised if the Arcanum set bonuses were a lot more powerful than that.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 14 hours ago #108

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: I'd agree that with the arcanum set can come a new precedent. I wouldn't be opposed to 2 of each. Adding fleece could help the market as well.

With the announcement of Ring Con, I'd expect the price of rings to go up a bit.

Every legendary sells for less than the sum of its parts. Relics as well. At this point, it feels like if you just want the thing, buying it is far better (see recent Ebay Auctions as proof). If you have more than 50% of needed trade goods, then purchasing can be worth it.


Wade, I missed this announcement. What is Ring Con, and when is it? Is it similar to Skull Con, the transmuted Ring gets you entry?


I forget when it was announced, but TPTB put out that transmuting the rings would allow entry to a special event similar to Skull Con.
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