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TOPIC: 2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals

2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #73

Fred K wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: There's no reason not to allow the existing obsoleted shirt of focus as a part of the transmute outside of pushing players to buy more tokens, which isn't a great look.

Previously when an older token has been obsoleted by a new release they've offered a trade in. If they don't want to let a non shirt in the Arcanum transmute maybe offer a swap of the Shirt of Focus for the new shirt like they've done a few times before.


I disagree that this is the same scenario. Just because a new token becomes available (at a different rarity in this case) that has some of the abilities of a previous token doesn’t mean it is a replacement.

This has several abilities. Your logic would have the redoubt armors replace all prior armors and give a trade in option. The new legendary bead replaces lucky traveller as BiS but we wouldn’t expect trade in there.

Jeff answered this pretty clearly that the answer is no. Besides people looking to profit off the secondary market, nobody else has objected.

I’m completely ok with this since Jeff made the announcement years ago.

Fred


Quote it.

The only piece we've seen from Jeff in this thread is him agreeing that allowing the Shirt of Focus was a good idea.

Where did he specifically say that it will not be done.


I can’t quote someone not saying something. We were told, by Druegar, that the shirt of focus would NOT be part of this transmute. Jeff has never officially said this would be part pf the transmute and did, officially, release the set of shirts that would be included. That is pretty concrete.

It opens a terrible can of worms to add a substitute in for a multi-part transmute when that has never happened before. Someone could argue the ring of protection +2 should be part of the circle ring transmute because it has identical powers to one of the rings. It is non-sensical to follow that argument (anything with the same bonuses is the same item.)

Some people have been trying to buy up shirts of focus anticipating they be added to this transmute. When the announcement came out that they wouldn’t be included and the arcanum item’s powers were announced, values of the shirts of focus fell. Then it sounded like that point wasn’t set in stone (though, nobody official for TD confirmed any change.) Allowing it as part of the transmute now means saving $100+ on the secondary market versus the first shirt. I’ve been approached twice for just that purpose (I sold one and kept the others since they are great loaners for newer players.)

To avoid profiteering off it, if allowed, only let it substitute for the last shirt released but I still don’t think this precedent should be set.

Fred


Fred, do you have first-hand knowledge of people buying up Shirts of Focus to try to take a profit? I haven't heard of that happening myself, and I know all the ones I have are ones I bought when they were still available as PYPs (and thought that they would be usable in the recipe).

It doesn't make much sense for someone to try to buy up Shirts of Focus anyway. If next year follows this year's pattern, PYPs will be available for around $85 each. Someone would have to be able to get Shirts of Focus for well under that to make any decent profit, and I haven't seen Shirts of Focus selling for a lot less than $85 (although to be fair I haven't really looked). Looking now - the cheapest at Trent's is $100, Kirk's is $103, and my Token Shop has them at $89.99. None of those seem low enough for anyone to profiteer on Shirts of Focus, even if it were made an alternate to the recipe.

EDIT: Rereading your post, it sounds like you're saying people are buying them to substitute for Shirt of the Oaf or Shirt of the Nimble. If that's what you're saying, I haven't seen anyone suggesting that, I've just seen people (including me) saying it should be an alternate to the UR Focus Shirt, not one of the first three shirts. It would make no sense for it to be an alternate for one of the non-Focus shirts.
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #74

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Mike Steele wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: There's no reason not to allow the existing obsoleted shirt of focus as a part of the transmute outside of pushing players to buy more tokens, which isn't a great look.

Previously when an older token has been obsoleted by a new release they've offered a trade in. If they don't want to let a non shirt in the Arcanum transmute maybe offer a swap of the Shirt of Focus for the new shirt like they've done a few times before.


I disagree that this is the same scenario. Just because a new token becomes available (at a different rarity in this case) that has some of the abilities of a previous token doesn’t mean it is a replacement.

This has several abilities. Your logic would have the redoubt armors replace all prior armors and give a trade in option. The new legendary bead replaces lucky traveller as BiS but we wouldn’t expect trade in there.

Jeff answered this pretty clearly that the answer is no. Besides people looking to profit off the secondary market, nobody else has objected.

I’m completely ok with this since Jeff made the announcement years ago.

Fred


Quote it.

The only piece we've seen from Jeff in this thread is him agreeing that allowing the Shirt of Focus was a good idea.

Where did he specifically say that it will not be done.


I can’t quote someone not saying something. We were told, by Druegar, that the shirt of focus would NOT be part of this transmute. Jeff has never officially said this would be part pf the transmute and did, officially, release the set of shirts that would be included. That is pretty concrete.

It opens a terrible can of worms to add a substitute in for a multi-part transmute when that has never happened before. Someone could argue the ring of protection +2 should be part of the circle ring transmute because it has identical powers to one of the rings. It is non-sensical to follow that argument (anything with the same bonuses is the same item.)

Some people have been trying to buy up shirts of focus anticipating they be added to this transmute. When the announcement came out that they wouldn’t be included and the arcanum item’s powers were announced, values of the shirts of focus fell. Then it sounded like that point wasn’t set in stone (though, nobody official for TD confirmed any change.) Allowing it as part of the transmute now means saving $100+ on the secondary market versus the first shirt. I’ve been approached twice for just that purpose (I sold one and kept the others since they are great loaners for newer players.)

To avoid profiteering off it, if allowed, only let it substitute for the last shirt released but I still don’t think this precedent should be set.

Fred


Fred, do you have first-hand knowledge of people buying up Shirts of Focus to try to take a profit? I haven't heard of that happening myself, and I know all the ones I have are ones I bought when they were still available as PYPs (and thought that they would be usable in the recipe).

It doesn't make much sense for someone to try to buy up Shirts of Focus anyway. If next year follows this year's pattern, PYPs will be available for around $85 each. Someone would have to be able to get Shirts of Focus for well under that to make any decent profit, and I haven't seen Shirts of Focus selling for a lot less than $85 (although to be fair I haven't really looked). Looking now - the cheapest at Trent's is $100, Kirk's is $103, and my Token Shop has them at $89.99. None of those seem low enough for anyone to profiteer on Shirts of Focus, even if it were made an alternate to the recipe.

EDIT: Rereading your post, it sounds like you're saying people are buying them to substitute for Shirt of the Oaf or Shirt of the Nimble. If that's what you're saying, I haven't seen anyone suggesting that, I've just seen people (including me) saying it should be an alternate to the UR Focus Shirt, not one of the first three shirts. It would make no sense for it to be an alternate for one of the non-Focus shirts.


I certainly dont think shirt of focus should be substitutable for any shirt I the arcanum, only focus for focus makes sense IMO. I can't see that leading to a profiteering motive since the in print 3 focus +- shirt would keep a lid on it.

Ultimately though I just want to understand the thought process behind the decision.
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #75

Fred K wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: There's no reason not to allow the existing obsoleted shirt of focus as a part of the transmute outside of pushing players to buy more tokens, which isn't a great look.

Previously when an older token has been obsoleted by a new release they've offered a trade in. If they don't want to let a non shirt in the Arcanum transmute maybe offer a swap of the Shirt of Focus for the new shirt like they've done a few times before.


I disagree that this is the same scenario. Just because a new token becomes available (at a different rarity in this case) that has some of the abilities of a previous token doesn’t mean it is a replacement.

This has several abilities. Your logic would have the redoubt armors replace all prior armors and give a trade in option. The new legendary bead replaces lucky traveller as BiS but we wouldn’t expect trade in there.

Jeff answered this pretty clearly that the answer is no. Besides people looking to profit off the secondary market, nobody else has objected.

I’m completely ok with this since Jeff made the announcement years ago.

Fred


Quote it.

The only piece we've seen from Jeff in this thread is him agreeing that allowing the Shirt of Focus was a good idea.

Where did he specifically say that it will not be done.


I can’t quote someone not saying something. We were told, by Druegar, that the shirt of focus would NOT be part of this transmute. Jeff has never officially said this would be part pf the transmute and did, officially, release the set of shirts that would be included. That is pretty concrete.

It opens a terrible can of worms to add a substitute in for a multi-part transmute when that has never happened before. Someone could argue the ring of protection +2 should be part of the circle ring transmute because it has identical powers to one of the rings. It is non-sensical to follow that argument (anything with the same bonuses is the same item.)

Some people have been trying to buy up shirts of focus anticipating they be added to this transmute. When the announcement came out that they wouldn’t be included and the arcanum item’s powers were announced, values of the shirts of focus fell. Then it sounded like that point wasn’t set in stone (though, nobody official for TD confirmed any change.) Allowing it as part of the transmute now means saving $100+ on the secondary market versus the first shirt. I’ve been approached twice for just that purpose (I sold one and kept the others since they are great loaners for newer players.)

To avoid profiteering off it, if allowed, only let it substitute for the last shirt released but I still don’t think this precedent should be set.

Fred


Just gonna quote you from yourself.

Also the majority of the people suggesting the use of the shirt of focus I have seen are people looking to make the Arcanum, not looking to profit on the ... ? .. lack of profit available from an in print shirt when it was asked, that they likely paid more than a 2023 PYP will cost based on looking at 2022 auctions, or even assuming 2023 auction prices jump back to 90-100 for a PYP still not saving money.

I'm honestly not sure who you think is profiting off allowing this substitution?

Seems a lot more likely we have players who bought the Shirt of Focus when it was PYP to support the game, who are now being told the shirt they thought would be usable in the transmute is no longer usable and will cost them another PYP to make.

Seems like a bad player retention decision to screw over that player to fight a percieved person making a few extra bucks off the price of a PYP they've held for several years.

...

Yeah.

EDIT: Seems that you might be thinking people are asking for shirt of Focus to be a swap for ANY shirt, which definitely should not happen. The piece people are asking be honored is the use of the Shirt of Focus or the New +3/-1 Focus shirt in the new transmute. Swapping Focus shirt for Focus shirt, similar to the Gloves of Dexterity/Cutpurse offering several years back.

I think we may just be arguing over incorrect assumptions.
Last edit: by Arcanist Kolixela.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #76

Shirt of Focus came out in 2018. Idea of Arcanum shirt came about in 2019 as Shirt of the Oaf was 2020, so people could have bought Focus late in 2019 as dev process happened earlier than it had previously.

They could have seen this and decided to get more:

Multi-Year UR Shirt Set: Over the next four years we plan to release four Shirts. The first three give bonus/penalties toward the STR, DEX, CON stats and the final year grants +2 Focus (+2 to cast healing spells, cast damage spells, and polymorph damage.) At the end of the four years, all four can be combined so they make one Shirt that gives +2 to all those 3 stats and has the Focus power.

But, if you aren't planning to actually use those Shirts of Focus, why would you have bothered? If you knew you could get them in a reprint, it wouldn't have costed any more to wait - would have cost less as PYP prices generally rise throughout the year.

So, you got them to play with. Well, I assume you did. I did. So, as someone with multiple Shirts of Focus since I do builds for multiple players, the "problem" is that they wouldn't go into a transmute. Which they never were intended to do in the first place as earlier ideas for Arcanum weren't even shirts. If it was Nosering of the Oaf, Nosering of the Nimble, Nosering of the Imbiber, and Nosering of the Shrewd, Shirt of Focus would have same value until the four noserings turned into a shirt somehow and replaced Shirt of Focus just as Shirt of Focus replaced Shirt of the Fae (all of one year later).

Now, it's possible someone would get SoF for the transmute after it was no longer a PYP, but there would be no reason to do that either unless going to play with it as could just get it when PYP again if didn't want to play with it and lose nothing.

So ... from a transmute standpoint, we got our hopes up that a token we got to play with would have additional value as part of a new transmute that seemed entirely designed to make use of a token that already existed.

What bothers me about all of this isn't that my Shirts are going to be transmute worthless as the only reason to get them in the first place was to play with them. What bothers me is that Shirt of the Shrewd is a small variation of something that already exists. I suppose I could feel the same way with Shirt of Blessed Strength -> Shirt of the Oaf since it's mechanically very analogous. But, those are two different rarities as well it's a bit more interesting the difference between the two. +1 Focus, -1 saves comes across to me as a very dull variation that just feels like power increase as STR or DEX being odd or even matters in a way that Focus being odd or even doesn't.

That the end product is +2 Focus makes Shirt of the Shrewd seem exceedingly inelegant design, as a +2 Focus shirt already existed. It just comes across as intuitively obvious that you use the token that is the right slot, rarity, and mechanic to make the final product. So, when don't end up doing that, comes across as a cash grab to now force people to get "Shirt of Other Focus" even though SoF predates the Arcanum plan. It's that perception that I think offends people so much. And, I can understand why it feels so wrong even if this could have all been avoided by having Arcanum start with some other slot or with different mechanics than these particular stat boosts.

Now, nobody who owns a BiS token is going to get that excited by it getting replaced, but, um, that's the way this game works. At one point in time, Templar Set was BiS. Muk's replaced something in your build. Development in the game is based on obsoleting tokens over time, well, with the idea of BiS builds. The reality is that you can play Epic with Templar Set or whatever.

If I were going to complain about the Arcanum Shirt transmute recipe, I'd make an argument along the lines of how the original Eldritch recipes made sense because the number of players was much smaller and high end stuff was much rarer, and later Eldritch recipes got grandfathered into having insanely cheap recipes for tokens more powerful than legendaries. To go with Eldritch recipes for non-Eldritch tokens that are still going to be better than legendaries is as ludicrous as how expensive relics and legendaries became. Once the precedent is set that Arcanum recipes are trivially easy to complete, then stuck forever with those sorts of recipes or generate a bunch of backlash, so should just up the first Arcanum recipes to like 3x all TG and 10k GP or whatever now.

That would be if I were to complain about a shirt transmute recipe, but why would I do that?
Last edit: by Ian Lee.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #77

People who play spell casters bought Shirts of Focus years ago to use in their builds and because they assumed they could use them in a future transmute recipe (even though nowhere did anyone from TD ever specifically say they would be useable in the recipe) and now they don't want to have to pay more money for another UR. I get it, people assumed one thing and it didn't happen. But that's what happens sometimes with assumptions, they don't always pan out.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi
Last edit: by Rob F.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #78

Grizwald wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'm not sure it was ever that cost effective to buy all the ingredients needed for a Relic+ Transmute, it was probably always more affordable to buy the transmuted token than to buy all the ingredients needed to transmute it.


It's probably not cost effective. But waiting for the players with Scrooge McDuck vaults of trade goods to build the transmutes while increasing the amount of trade goods is unsustainable. What happens when Trent or Lazlo decide they are only making enough transmutes for their needs and none to sell?

We really need to look at the recipes from the standpoint of starting at zero, rather than assuming that all the players have all the trade goods that they will every need.


If Trent and Lazlo (and any other big spenders) decide one day to only build what they need for themselves then we'll all just have to spend more money on Tokens, simple as that.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #79

Rob F wrote:

Grizwald wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'm not sure it was ever that cost effective to buy all the ingredients needed for a Relic+ Transmute, it was probably always more affordable to buy the transmuted token than to buy all the ingredients needed to transmute it.


It's probably not cost effective. But waiting for the players with Scrooge McDuck vaults of trade goods to build the transmutes while increasing the amount of trade goods is unsustainable. What happens when Trent or Lazlo decide they are only making enough transmutes for their needs and none to sell?

We really need to look at the recipes from the standpoint of starting at zero, rather than assuming that all the players have all the trade goods that they will every need.


If Trent and Lazlo (and any other big spenders) decide one day to only build what they need for themselves then we'll all just have to spend more money on Tokens, simple as that.

And who is going to spend so much for 6AC boots when they could get 4 winds, a kilt, and have money left over?
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 16 hours ago #80

Yes, I noticed the 4* ring went back down from 4 Planks to 3 Planks to match the 2022 ring. Thanks for that; I'll probably make one now.

Rob F wrote: If Trent and Lazlo (and any other big spenders) decide one day to only build what they need for themselves then we'll all just have to spend more money on Tokens, simple as that.

Or just, hear me out here, not spend that kind of money and settle for numbers only going up "a lot" instead of "all the way".

But that's crazy talk, I know.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 12 hours ago #81

Allen John wrote: Or just, hear me out here, not spend that kind of money and settle for numbers only going up "a lot" instead of "all the way".

But that's crazy talk, I know.


I cut the amount I spent on 8k auctions by more than half this year, due to the increase in recipe requirements.
Last edit: by Daniel White.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 7 hours ago #82

Rob F wrote:

Grizwald wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'm not sure it was ever that cost effective to buy all the ingredients needed for a Relic+ Transmute, it was probably always more affordable to buy the transmuted token than to buy all the ingredients needed to transmute it.


It's probably not cost effective. But waiting for the players with Scrooge McDuck vaults of trade goods to build the transmutes while increasing the amount of trade goods is unsustainable. What happens when Trent or Lazlo decide they are only making enough transmutes for their needs and none to sell?

We really need to look at the recipes from the standpoint of starting at zero, rather than assuming that all the players have all the trade goods that they will every need.


If Trent and Lazlo (and any other big spenders) decide one day to only build what they need for themselves then we'll all just have to spend more money on Tokens, simple as that.


I think quite a few of us are cutting down to just transmutes for ourselves rather than multiples for future trades, etc.. The eldritch items and arcanum might be exceptions but I am starting to give that second thoughts as well.

You can still buy kilts of dungeonbane for $400. That is around the same cost as the transmute was originally. Orion’s belt (still BiS for some builds) is still around transmute cost as is the bead of the lucky traveller (that one might have lost value.)

The only recent transmutes I can recall that went up in value were Auri’s Candle and the Skull.

Non-transmuted URs are creeping up to the cost of transmutes from the same time period. That tells us the likely direction of the secondary market - most transmutes sold will be from 1 people upgrading to a different item or 2 people downgrading/quitting the game.

My goal is to encourage TD to keep bringing in new players and continue operating profitably. I definitely don’t mean any negativity towards Jeff and crew - they kept a hobby alive that helped keep us sane for the past 2 years after many years of providing a great game. I would love to see another 10+ years of TD thriving.

Ironically, I think the transmute challenge is an economic one. TD has to sell tokens to make money. If the transmute costs drive away new players, it hurts them in the long run. The secondary market definitely causes them some heartburn as well. BoFW is vastly better than the new boots at a fraction of the cost. I don’t know what the answer is there - TD needs a secondary market to help promote the game and get newer folks access to similar builds as their more veteran peers.

I appreciate the TD team listening to us on this and reconsidering the transmute costs.

Fred
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 6 hours ago #83

Endgame wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Grizwald wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'm not sure it was ever that cost effective to buy all the ingredients needed for a Relic+ Transmute, it was probably always more affordable to buy the transmuted token than to buy all the ingredients needed to transmute it.


It's probably not cost effective. But waiting for the players with Scrooge McDuck vaults of trade goods to build the transmutes while increasing the amount of trade goods is unsustainable. What happens when Trent or Lazlo decide they are only making enough transmutes for their needs and none to sell?

We really need to look at the recipes from the standpoint of starting at zero, rather than assuming that all the players have all the trade goods that they will every need.


If Trent and Lazlo (and any other big spenders) decide one day to only build what they need for themselves then we'll all just have to spend more money on Tokens, simple as that.

And who is going to spend so much for 6AC boots when they could get 4 winds, a kilt, and have money left over?


What I hear you saying is if the AC Boots were better in some way then they might be worth transmuting. So maybe the issue is the power of the Legendary. But...maybe future dungeon and monster design will drive more players towards higher AC? Who knows, but for now people can go the route of 4 winds and Kilt. People don't have to transmute the AC boots. If they don't does that mean there's less Token sales? We can speculate but not easy to tell.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #84

I don't believe the problem with the boots is one of fewer token sales, but more of an issue with not taking trade goods out of the economy. If people hold off, the goods that aren't spent may mean more expensive recipes in the future, or more power creep, in an attempt to pull those goods out of the market.
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