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TOPIC: 2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals

2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #61

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: There's no reason not to allow the existing obsoleted shirt of focus as a part of the transmute outside of pushing players to buy more tokens, which isn't a great look.

Previously when an older token has been obsoleted by a new release they've offered a trade in. If they don't want to let a non shirt in the Arcanum transmute maybe offer a swap of the Shirt of Focus for the new shirt like they've done a few times before.


I disagree that this is the same scenario. Just because a new token becomes available (at a different rarity in this case) that has some of the abilities of a previous token doesn’t mean it is a replacement.

This has several abilities. Your logic would have the redoubt armors replace all prior armors and give a trade in option. The new legendary bead replaces lucky traveller as BiS but we wouldn’t expect trade in there.

Jeff answered this pretty clearly that the answer is no. Besides people looking to profit off the secondary market, nobody else has objected.

I’m completely ok with this since Jeff made the announcement years ago.

Fred
What do we want? Evidence based science! When do we want it? After peer review!

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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #62

Fred K wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: There's no reason not to allow the existing obsoleted shirt of focus as a part of the transmute outside of pushing players to buy more tokens, which isn't a great look.

Previously when an older token has been obsoleted by a new release they've offered a trade in. If they don't want to let a non shirt in the Arcanum transmute maybe offer a swap of the Shirt of Focus for the new shirt like they've done a few times before.


I disagree that this is the same scenario. Just because a new token becomes available (at a different rarity in this case) that has some of the abilities of a previous token doesn’t mean it is a replacement.

This has several abilities. Your logic would have the redoubt armors replace all prior armors and give a trade in option. The new legendary bead replaces lucky traveller as BiS but we wouldn’t expect trade in there.

Jeff answered this pretty clearly that the answer is no. Besides people looking to profit off the secondary market, nobody else has objected.

I’m completely ok with this since Jeff made the announcement years ago.

Fred


Quote it.

The only piece we've seen from Jeff in this thread is him agreeing that allowing the Shirt of Focus was a good idea.

Where did he specifically say that it will not be done.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #63

jedibcg wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: There's no reason not to allow the existing obsoleted shirt of focus as a part of the transmute outside of pushing players to buy more tokens, which isn't a great look.

Previously when an older token has been obsoleted by a new release they've offered a trade in. If they don't want to let a non shirt in the Arcanum transmute maybe offer a swap of the Shirt of Focus for the new shirt like they've done a few times before.

. Sorry which tokens have had a trade in options that were made obsolete. I can only think of one maybe. Not saying there aren’t more but I don’t remember but maybe one. There have been at least 3 trade in for nerfs, Cloak of Shadowskin, Lenses of Divine Sight and Mad Evoker’s Charm.


Just to be clear, the discussion (from my POV at least) isn't that it should be an alternate because it was made obsolete, it's because people bought them under the impression from Jeff's statements that it would be usable in the recipe because the fourth shirt was going to be a +2 Focus Shirt.

Here is the most relevant quote from Jeff, it isn't an off the cuff remark in a thread, it's a thought-out statement. Jeff described a reprint (either identical or functional) of the Shirt of Focus:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=249939

and the quote itself in particular:
Jeff Martin wrote: New Multi-Year Token Set - Over the next four years we will release four Shirts that will give bonus/penalties toward the STR, DEX, CON stats and the final year will have a “Focus” power (+2 to healing, damage spells & polymorph damage) . At the end of the four years, all four can be combined so they make one Shirt that gives +2 to all those 3 stats – and have the Focus power.

Even in the previous thread on this topic, Druegar said: "when it was decided that the Focus shirt would not be a duplicate of Shirt of Focus , it was decided to not allow it to be substituted." That indicates to me at least that it was originally planned to be a duplicate of the Shirt of Focus and it was only decided that the Shirt of Focus couldn't be used in the recipe after the fourth shirt was changed to be different from the Shirt of Focus - which was after people had bought them thinking they could be used in the recipe.

I'm still surprised it isn't an alternate, considering it has a much stronger case to be an alternate than something like the +2 Holy Great Sword being an alternate in the +3 Holy Avenger recipe. Nobody bought the +2 Holy Great Sword in 2007 thinking it might be an ingredient in the +3 Holy Avenger recipe.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #64

I played TD with a group of friends for a couple of years pre-pandemic at GenCon. I was always excited when a whale joined our group and lent us tokens, so in summer 2019, after not getting to play at 5th level at all, I decided to buy a Fateful Ring of Heroism. I expected that to be the only big investment I made in TD, but then Covid hit, and VTD became a thing, and I became hooked. I went from spending nothing to spending $100-ish to spending thousands... but almost none of that goes to TD. I bought a lot of tokens on the secondary market, and that's where most of my build comes from. I've done a few transmutes, but the cost of doing transmutes vs. buying things has put me off a lot. I made a spreadsheet to track auction prices, and was quickly deterred. Even just seeing the prices soar this year has soured me on transmutes. At the low point on TG cost this year, transmuting a Luna's or a Muk's from the relic would've cost about $700-750 in trade goods and gold/wish ring, which is a hefty chunk, but not wildly off from what it costs to buy a legendary on the secondary market even when you factor in the cost of the relic and the extra needed tokens. But at current prices, that has soared to $1200-1250, and that's way out of line for other legendaries. The legendaries are good, but not that much better than the relics. I had started collecting to do these transmutes, and I gave up, and I'm sitting on my trade goods for future years instead.

I'm not a hardcore player compared to many - I do 1-2 runs per VTD, not 10-20. I could've been a good source of money for TD - I like having the best stuff, and the latest and greatest. But at these prices, I can't justify it. Instead, most of my money will end up going to the secondary market.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #65

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Fred K wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: There's no reason not to allow the existing obsoleted shirt of focus as a part of the transmute outside of pushing players to buy more tokens, which isn't a great look.

Previously when an older token has been obsoleted by a new release they've offered a trade in. If they don't want to let a non shirt in the Arcanum transmute maybe offer a swap of the Shirt of Focus for the new shirt like they've done a few times before.


I disagree that this is the same scenario. Just because a new token becomes available (at a different rarity in this case) that has some of the abilities of a previous token doesn’t mean it is a replacement.

This has several abilities. Your logic would have the redoubt armors replace all prior armors and give a trade in option. The new legendary bead replaces lucky traveller as BiS but we wouldn’t expect trade in there.

Jeff answered this pretty clearly that the answer is no. Besides people looking to profit off the secondary market, nobody else has objected.

I’m completely ok with this since Jeff made the announcement years ago.

Fred


Ok this is just backwards. Please explain how wanting to use an already purchased shirt in a recipe is "looking to profit"? If anything its looking not to get hosed since the +3/-doesn't matter shirt available at PYP basically obsoletes the regular focus shirt.

Realistically anyone who could "profit" from using the old shirt they may have pre-purchased specifically for this specific purpose is going to spend the maximum amount they can on tokens next year anyway due to the new TE bead that may or may not be part of the upcoming legendary.

Jeff hasn't (to my knowledge) commented on this issue at all. I know the position of TPTB, but all that has happened is that an easily missable page quietly popped up after people had acted on what felt like fairly solid information while shirt of focus was a PYP.

Generalizing here a bit, but I don't think many people felt the need to complain a lot when that page was first circulated because we assumed (maybe unreasonably) that things would be done the way they already had and that there would be an alt recipe.

A lot of people are also just burned out on having this type of argument over and over every dev cycle and have backed off as a result. That doesn't mean they are happy. Some have just gone silent or left outright. IMO, that's a loss to the community. Being pedantic, reflexively defending everything HQ does, or ignoring that wont fix the issue.
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

Sartre sits in in a coffee shop and asks for a coffee without cream. The barista apologizes “Sorry, we don't have any cream. Can I offer you a coffee without milk instead?”
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #66

I think the main point of the transmutes, at least the ones that are really expensive to transmute, are for people that have tons of tokens sitting around from token purchases and dungeon runs to have something valuable to do with them. It was a way to turn a ton of excess tokens you didn't need into something neat that you could use. Which is great for True Dungeon to do - I don't see Wizards of the Coast allowing me to turn in thousands of excess Magic Cards for something neat.

I'm not sure it was ever that cost effective to buy all the ingredients needed for a Relic+ Transmute, it was probably always more affordable to buy the transmuted token than to buy all the ingredients needed to transmute it.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #67

Mike Steele wrote: I'm not sure it was ever that cost effective to buy all the ingredients needed for a Relic+ Transmute, it was probably always more affordable to buy the transmuted token than to buy all the ingredients needed to transmute it.


It's probably not cost effective. But waiting for the players with Scrooge McDuck vaults of trade goods to build the transmutes while increasing the amount of trade goods is unsustainable. What happens when Trent or Lazlo decide they are only making enough transmutes for their needs and none to sell?

We really need to look at the recipes from the standpoint of starting at zero, rather than assuming that all the players have all the trade goods that they will every need.

Jeff Martin wrote: All damage is Sacred.

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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #68

I genuinely don't understand the anger about the Shirt of Focus thing. Yeah, I get being bummed that you have shirts of focus that aren't going to be super useful, but it was never said that the shirt of focus would be part of the transmute. "Good idea" and "the fourth shirt will have a focus power" are not "the shirt of focus will be part of the transmute". They're not going back on their word, people read way too much into an off handed comment and are now frustrated and angry that their read was wrong. AoTF is going to be used in a treasure enhancing transmute. Dragon orbs are going to be used in a transmute. The rings of the 5th circle are going to be used in a future transmute. Things that are in already published recipes will be used in transmutes. Anything else is just guesswork and wishful thinking.

All that being said, transmute costs have gone way out of control. The secondary market is a way better value than trying to get what you want via treasure and runs. That's not sustainable, or good for the long term health of the game. That goes doubly when tokens don't really do much of anything. There's only a handful of tokens that change the game in any real way, most just make your numbers higher so that you can run on difficulties with higher numbers in order to have higher numbers. It isn't that higher numbers aren't fun, but the cost of getting those higher numbers through playing the game is going crazy.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #69

Some suggestions on what goes into these recipes:

If you look at the secondary market, OE/EB/AG have cratered in value. This seems to be a multiplicative function of 1. More runs = more treasure box treasure = more OE/EB/AG and 2. Last year's recipes being very unbalanced.

If one of the main functions of transmutes is to give us something to do with extra tokens, I think it would make good sense for this year's recipes to contain more OE/EB/AG than usual compared to other ingredients, such as DS and AI, stocks of which have been heavily drawn down by last year's recipes.

My suggestion would be to decrease the amount of DS and AI in this year's recipes substantially, and replace it with OE/EB/AG. It would also be more thematic to you know...require crystals to make the crystal-looking bead.
Last edit: by Daniel White.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #70

Daniel White wrote: Some suggestions on what goes into these recipes:

If you look at the secondary market, OE/EB/AG have cratered in value. This seems to be a multiplicative function of 1. More runs = more treasure box treasure = more OE/EB/AG and 2. Last year's recipes being very unbalanced.

If one of the main functions of transmutes is to give us something to do with extra tokens, I think it would make good sense for this year's recipes to contain more OE/EB/AG than usual compared to other ingredients, such as DS and AI, stocks of which have been heavily drawn down by last year's recipes.

My suggestion would be to decrease the amount of DS and AI in this year's recipes substantially, and replace it with OE/EB/AG. It would also be more thematic to you know...require crystals to make the crystal-looking bead.


Daniel, I agree with what you're saying. I think that each year the recipes should be tailored to address whatever is currently in the most glut, and cut back on the stuff that's spiking in price due to high demand. I do agree that some adjustment should be made when some of the normally lower value trade item tokens start selling for more than OE/EB/AG.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #71

Mike Steele wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Some suggestions on what goes into these recipes:

If you look at the secondary market, OE/EB/AG have cratered in value. This seems to be a multiplicative function of 1. More runs = more treasure box treasure = more OE/EB/AG and 2. Last year's recipes being very unbalanced.

If one of the main functions of transmutes is to give us something to do with extra tokens, I think it would make good sense for this year's recipes to contain more OE/EB/AG than usual compared to other ingredients, such as DS and AI, stocks of which have been heavily drawn down by last year's recipes.

My suggestion would be to decrease the amount of DS and AI in this year's recipes substantially, and replace it with OE/EB/AG. It would also be more thematic to you know...require crystals to make the crystal-looking bead.


Daniel, I agree with what you're saying. I think that each year the recipes should be tailored to address whatever is currently in the most glut, and cut back on the stuff that's spiking in price due to high demand. I do agree that some adjustment should be made when some of the normally lower value trade item tokens start selling for more than OE/EB/AG.


I think that makes sense for the short-term recipes that expire at the end of the following year. I think it can be problematic though when the timeless legendary recipes try to get used to balance the different trade goods, since the recipes will stick around and have a multiple-year impact. Which then leads to further need for balancing in later recipes.


Let the Legendaries be large sinks that are balanced across the trade good spectrum, while lower recipes get used to deal with balancing spikes and deficits in individual goods.
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2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals 4 months 1 day ago #72

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: There's no reason not to allow the existing obsoleted shirt of focus as a part of the transmute outside of pushing players to buy more tokens, which isn't a great look.

Previously when an older token has been obsoleted by a new release they've offered a trade in. If they don't want to let a non shirt in the Arcanum transmute maybe offer a swap of the Shirt of Focus for the new shirt like they've done a few times before.


I disagree that this is the same scenario. Just because a new token becomes available (at a different rarity in this case) that has some of the abilities of a previous token doesn’t mean it is a replacement.

This has several abilities. Your logic would have the redoubt armors replace all prior armors and give a trade in option. The new legendary bead replaces lucky traveller as BiS but we wouldn’t expect trade in there.

Jeff answered this pretty clearly that the answer is no. Besides people looking to profit off the secondary market, nobody else has objected.

I’m completely ok with this since Jeff made the announcement years ago.

Fred


Quote it.

The only piece we've seen from Jeff in this thread is him agreeing that allowing the Shirt of Focus was a good idea.

Where did he specifically say that it will not be done.


I can’t quote someone not saying something. We were told, by Druegar, that the shirt of focus would NOT be part of this transmute. Jeff has never officially said this would be part pf the transmute and did, officially, release the set of shirts that would be included. That is pretty concrete.

It opens a terrible can of worms to add a substitute in for a multi-part transmute when that has never happened before. Someone could argue the ring of protection +2 should be part of the circle ring transmute because it has identical powers to one of the rings. It is non-sensical to follow that argument (anything with the same bonuses is the same item.)

Some people have been trying to buy up shirts of focus anticipating they be added to this transmute. When the announcement came out that they wouldn’t be included and the arcanum item’s powers were announced, values of the shirts of focus fell. Then it sounded like that point wasn’t set in stone (though, nobody official for TD confirmed any change.) Allowing it as part of the transmute now means saving $100+ on the secondary market versus the first shirt. I’ve been approached twice for just that purpose (I sold one and kept the others since they are great loaners for newer players.)

To avoid profiteering off it, if allowed, only let it substitute for the last shirt released but I still don’t think this precedent should be set.

Fred
What do we want? Evidence based science! When do we want it? After peer review!

Elf Wizard build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=570&id=247398

Rogue build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=245490#287189

Items for Sale or Trade
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247555

Items needed to complete my collection
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=253058
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