TOPIC: 2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals

When Jeff talked about this year’s Relics and Legendaries being more for newer players and opening up the fun of transmuting - I was imagining more attainable levels of trade goods. I’m disappointed that didn’t turn out to be the case - especially with relics/Legendaries aimed at players without year’s worth of equipment that are more usable than these.

Sadly that’s not the case - and I can’t imagine being a newer player with the cost of these pieces.

I remember when my group discovered we could do with all these tokens we had started to pool that we’d never use - then trying to see what we were close to making. Yea the Legendaries were “pie in the sky” - but we could work to making a relic or 2. Not with these types of recipes. These seem aimed at the “token whales” only - 30+ and 20+ amounts would seem unattainable to newer players.

I really hope they look to making some more accessible relics in the future - they don’t have to be crazy powerful best in slot but useful to newer players starting to gather larger collections of tokens.

As it is - I can cross off the Boots and Bead from my UR wish list as there’s no way I can afford that many resources on something to loan out to new players. I don’t own BoFW - but I’m happy with my Boots of the Marauder and Bead of Lucky Traveller compared to the prices shown here.

The “Vi” set includes Viper Strike, make it happen!

Cary Kelly wrote: When Jeff talked about this year’s Relics and Legendaries being more for newer players and opening up the fun of transmuting - I was imagining more attainable levels of trade goods. I’m disappointed that didn’t turn out to be the case - especially with relics/Legendaries aimed at players without year’s worth of equipment that are more usable than these.

Sadly that’s not the case - and I can’t imagine being a newer player with the cost of these pieces.

I remember when my group discovered we could do with all these tokens we had started to pool that we’d never use - then trying to see what we were close to making. Yea the Legendaries were “pie in the sky” - but we could work to making a relic or 2. Not with these types of recipes. These seem aimed at the “token whales” only - 30+ and 20+ amounts would seem unattainable to newer players.

I really hope they look to making some more accessible relics in the future - they don’t have to be crazy powerful best in slot but useful to newer players starting to gather larger collections of tokens.

As it is - I can cross off the Boots and Bead from my UR wish list as there’s no way I can afford that many resources on something to loan out to new players. I don’t own BoFW - but I’m happy with my Boots of the Marauder and Bead of Lucky Traveller compared to the prices shown here.

What I have a bit of trouble understanding are the posts (not just yours but others) about these transmute costs being unfriendly/unattainable to "newer" players? If Trent 2.0 does their first run at Gen Con this year and gets hooked, they are going to drop mad cash to start their Token addiction, regardless of them being a newer player. So I don't see how the amount of trade goods in transmute recipes directly impacts newer players, it all depends on the newer player's financial situation.

Rob F wrote:

Cary Kelly wrote: When Jeff talked about this year’s Relics and Legendaries being more for newer players and opening up the fun of transmuting - I was imagining more attainable levels of trade goods. I’m disappointed that didn’t turn out to be the case - especially with relics/Legendaries aimed at players without year’s worth of equipment that are more usable than these.

Sadly that’s not the case - and I can’t imagine being a newer player with the cost of these pieces.

I remember when my group discovered we could do with all these tokens we had started to pool that we’d never use - then trying to see what we were close to making. Yea the Legendaries were “pie in the sky” - but we could work to making a relic or 2. Not with these types of recipes. These seem aimed at the “token whales” only - 30+ and 20+ amounts would seem unattainable to newer players.

I really hope they look to making some more accessible relics in the future - they don’t have to be crazy powerful best in slot but useful to newer players starting to gather larger collections of tokens.

As it is - I can cross off the Boots and Bead from my UR wish list as there’s no way I can afford that many resources on something to loan out to new players. I don’t own BoFW - but I’m happy with my Boots of the Marauder and Bead of Lucky Traveller compared to the prices shown here.

What I have a bit of trouble understanding are the posts (not just yours but others) about these transmute costs being unfriendly/unattainable to "newer" players? If Trent 2.0 does their first run at Gen Con this year and gets hooked, they are going to drop mad cash to start their Token addiction, regardless of them being a newer player. So I don't see how the amount of trade goods in transmute recipes directly impacts newer players, it all depends on the newer player's financial situation.

How many Trent 2.0s do you think come into the game vs average players each year? Does the amount that one new whale spends exceed the amount spent by new players? We are seeing players that are level 7-8 saying the transmute costs are too high, I can't imagine what the average new player would think.

updated, see first post for link

I agree. I have been a fan for a long time and have the means to spend. Not at the Trent & Kirk levels but I can jump gear quite a bit. Reading back the conversation and then looking at what these new costs are going to be for the total of the end game piece is something that I would never do. The boots are really cool but Boots of the 4 winds are better and cheaper. I would rather pay 1500 for those being eldritch than the current transmute costs for vim. At $2500 I’d rather save n buy spend on older tokens that do more which would shift $ from Jeff to other players who from what I’m reading, most would do the same. If I was a $1000 / yr player it would take luck, and a few years. No CoA to boost pulls or the silver gold & platinum ioun to boost pulls. If the boots are less than legendaries in previous years and most have zero to no interest for the mid to high lvl players, it would be smart to rework it and make it something a new player could get in there 1st year. Accomplishment & the excitement of there very 1st legendary / 5pt relic. I think it would hook them more into the game than make it feel that catching up and playing with the stronger more experienced players is possible. I have gamed for a good 15-20 years and drawing in the smaller players that enjoying it and aren’t put off by high costs of some of the elite gear. I hope this makes sense. Jeff and the TD community is amazing and I want nothing more to continue to see it prosper. Have nothing but respect n love for y’all

You still could not make both relics with a 2k Condensed order (based on 2022 Condensed) but it is close enough that I am not going to complain. You would be 2 DS and 2 MH short total, but that is much better than the 22 DS and 12 MH would would have been short. 2k order vs a 4k order really.

The other trade goods are harder to figured out for a 2k/4k because you don't get UC and Rares condensed.

An 8k order you can figure out, but the other trade goods did not concern me and if DP and MS were increased I don't think anyone would notice...lol.

Rob F wrote:

Cary Kelly wrote: When Jeff talked about this year’s Relics and Legendaries being more for newer players and opening up the fun of transmuting - I was imagining more attainable levels of trade goods. I’m disappointed that didn’t turn out to be the case - especially with relics/Legendaries aimed at players without year’s worth of equipment that are more usable than these.

Sadly that’s not the case - and I can’t imagine being a newer player with the cost of these pieces.

I remember when my group discovered we could do with all these tokens we had started to pool that we’d never use - then trying to see what we were close to making. Yea the Legendaries were “pie in the sky” - but we could work to making a relic or 2. Not with these types of recipes. These seem aimed at the “token whales” only - 30+ and 20+ amounts would seem unattainable to newer players.

I really hope they look to making some more accessible relics in the future - they don’t have to be crazy powerful best in slot but useful to newer players starting to gather larger collections of tokens.

As it is - I can cross off the Boots and Bead from my UR wish list as there’s no way I can afford that many resources on something to loan out to new players. I don’t own BoFW - but I’m happy with my Boots of the Marauder and Bead of Lucky Traveller compared to the prices shown here.

What I have a bit of trouble understanding are the posts (not just yours but others) about these transmute costs being unfriendly/unattainable to "newer" players? If Trent 2.0 does their first run at Gen Con this year and gets hooked, they are going to drop mad cash to start their Token addiction, regardless of them being a newer player. So I don't see how the amount of trade goods in transmute recipes directly impacts newer players, it all depends on the newer player's financial situation.

As much as player like Trent (and myself for that matter) drop a good deal of cash, we are a rounding error in terms of the player base. GenCon alone will likely have 3K+ unique players. Half of those (or more) are likely newer players (adding up all tuns posted in the forums plus team synergy comes up with less than 1K of the 4K slot tickets.)

Rob - you aren’t a new player and have a good number of good tokens. Being experienced and still developing your characters, would you really drop $2,600 to transmute these boots? Now picture being a newer player, you did 3 runs at GenCon and put in your first $250 order. You now have excess trade goods so you look at your first 5 star transmute. $900+ ($800 if you get lucky with auctions.) It isn’t realistic for 99% of new players.

As for counting on Trent 2.0, it’s the same problem I teach people about in sales training. You can hit your sales targets with “whales” but not consistently. The hard core collectors mostly know each other. There aren’t hundreds of us. There are a handful of people who spend a lot and are quiet but not many. We know each other because we all look for the same old tokens. If TD counts on >50 people to be profitable, it is a recipe for disaster. People walk away from hobbies or have their financial situation change. Other competing games try to fish from this pind as well (Rpex being the most recent.)

It is good for the game to have new players who buy tokens. We hit a point where they just won’t buy much beyond URs directly because older tokens are a better deal. We’ve also hit the point where $250 orders aren’t the logical point of entry anymore. A $250 order doesn’t make a dent in trade goods needed for 5 star relics (though, can be a good path for 3 and 4 point relics.) I doubt it is good for the game to rely on auctions for most of the non-ticket revenue. That’s where we are.

I love seeing new players and see them discover the depth of the game. I think most of us do. Let’s have a path for them to join us on NM runs.

Fred

I think the latest (in total) are pretty much in line with last year. A little higher in some areas and a little lower in others. I can't really comment for a lot of the player base, but in general they seem fine to me.

I really like the relic set of recipes if in fact the goal is to achieve a newer player to get their first relic from all their bounty. I personally would edge back one OE and one EB from the recipes for relic because they don’t get as much love as the aragonite does in the treasure pulls.

I would also propose a little flair of the epic. We do 15K or wish ring… perhaps to the newer player who went nuts on runs, they will have extra bits. Perhaps any combination of 1K,1K,1K,1K,1K, or any monster bit. Need to play with wording but this tailors to both the newer player getting that nice shiny 500 GP in rare but also give them credit for any extra MBs they get too.

Any combination of five of the following (duplicates allowed):
1K reserve bars
2022 Monster bits
2021 Monster bits
2020 Monster bits

I like making it easier for the newer player for epics and literally spike the prices on legendary. This would be really good for economics as well as keep the relic distribution high thru its recipe’s lifetime

Rob F wrote:

Cary Kelly wrote: When Jeff talked about this year’s Relics and Legendaries being more for newer players and opening up the fun of transmuting - I was imagining more attainable levels of trade goods. I’m disappointed that didn’t turn out to be the case - especially with relics/Legendaries aimed at players without year’s worth of equipment that are more usable than these.

Sadly that’s not the case - and I can’t imagine being a newer player with the cost of these pieces.

I remember when my group discovered we could do with all these tokens we had started to pool that we’d never use - then trying to see what we were close to making. Yea the Legendaries were “pie in the sky” - but we could work to making a relic or 2. Not with these types of recipes. These seem aimed at the “token whales” only - 30+ and 20+ amounts would seem unattainable to newer players.

I really hope they look to making some more accessible relics in the future - they don’t have to be crazy powerful best in slot but useful to newer players starting to gather larger collections of tokens.

As it is - I can cross off the Boots and Bead from my UR wish list as there’s no way I can afford that many resources on something to loan out to new players. I don’t own BoFW - but I’m happy with my Boots of the Marauder and Bead of Lucky Traveller compared to the prices shown here.

What I have a bit of trouble understanding are the posts (not just yours but others) about these transmute costs being unfriendly/unattainable to "newer" players? If Trent 2.0 does their first run at Gen Con this year and gets hooked, they are going to drop mad cash to start their Token addiction, regardless of them being a newer player. So I don't see how the amount of trade goods in transmute recipes directly impacts newer players, it all depends on the newer player's financial situation.

You’re right it does depend on each individuals financial situation - I would think more people have less of a disposable income for a hobby in general compared to those I labeled as “token whales” - just like in a casino there are the few that can afford anything and then the general masses. I spent years splitting $250 orders and just getting treasure from my runs and it was a slower but steady move to building my first relics (and if not for tremendous luck during V1 thru V5 I still would be grinding towards my first non-CoA Legendary).

I had friends start years later and they jumped right in and bought up Relics, Legendaries and Rods of 7 parts. They didn’t bother with trying to save up and make their Relics, etc - they just bought them up and therefore the Transmute costs were meaningless to them. These people aren’t going to be buying trade goods to transmute - or even $8k orders to get goods to transmute - they’ll just wait and purchase.

I’m drawing on my own experiences as well as talking with more casual players to express how I think these will be perceived by newer players - obviously every person is different.

So ultimately it depends on who TD is trying to target with the Transmute recipes (which is why a few people asked what is the TD philosophy for transmutes so we can better judge/give opinions).

And after seeing the updated recipes - these seem much more attainable for newer players. This seems more in line with what the casual player might be picking up as they get more involved.

Dave wrote: I think the latest (in total) are pretty much in line with last year. A little higher in some areas and a little lower in others. I can't really comment for a lot of the player base, but in general they seem fine to me.

What I struggle with is those boots. They are not that much better than what I would consider a 5 star relic (mostly because AC is not that useful and the ability overlaps with Awakened Synergy). I just can't see pricing them at a full legendary price.

Edit: if nothing else consider swapping the TGs listed with the Bead. The Bead is the more useful of the two and should cost more.