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TOPIC: Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round)

Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #97

Mike Steele wrote: I wish people would stop using Charm of Spell Swapping as an excuse to make tokens worse for Druids. If a player wanted to be full healing or full damage, they're much better off playing a Cleric or Wizard. I don't know anyone who is using a Charm of Spell Swapping to go full damage or healing - is there anyone in these discussions that does use CoSS to do full damage or healing as a Druid? I think nearly all Druid players play with the spells on the card and don't make an attempt to go full damage or healing spells. The original robe design worked for all Druid versions, as would a +3 Robe of Focus. The current design only works for Clerics and Wizards, not Druids.


Wizards aren't on the current design, it's healing only. Wizards have been told that Jeff thinks it's a good idea for us to have a robe next year, but that's just a fuzzy hypothetical on roughly the same level as the wizard spellbook. Token design is a difficult, drawn out process, and "that's a good idea, remind of me that" can change for dozens of reasons in or out of TPTB's control. You can't design tokens around a maybe. Currently our only UR option gives us +5 dex and has been out of print for years.

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Last edit: by Josh M.. Reason: My phrasing could be read as pretty salty directed towards Jeff, and I wanted to clarify that wasn't what I was trying to say.

Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #98

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I wish people would stop using Charm of Spell Swapping as an excuse to make tokens worse for Druids.


So, I'm all for being very careful with how out of print tokens are used to justify future design decisions. This argument is disingenuous at best though - the whole reason this discussion started was because the power level was being chosen because of "tradeoffs".

If a player wanted to be full healing or full damage, they're much better off playing a Cleric or Wizard.


I'm not sure if that's always true, but assuming it is: that seems like a fine tradeoff for being able to heal, damage, and melee effectively based on what you need. If that's not what folks think the class should be - cool! That should be addressed during class reworks so that Druids have a clear identity.

I don't know anyone who is using a Charm of Spell Swapping to go full damage or healing - is there anyone in these discussions that does use CoSS to do full damage or healing as a Druid? I think nearly all Druid players play with the spells on the card and don't make an attempt to go full damage or healing spells.

So, what I heard here is that you find the spells on the card all useful. That's pretty awesome actually, it would be great to not need CoSS to get full utilization from all of the wee lil checkboxes. [/quote]

The original robe design worked for all Druid versions, as would a +3 Robe of Focus. The current design only works for Clerics and Wizards, not Druids.

You leave us wizards out of this. Healing robes are not wizard robes. :) I'm more interested in picking these robes up to let me play a healer in pick up groups, when I'm not familiar with the class and don't want to manage edge cases.

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Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #99

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Further you are talking about a class that has born the brunt of most token after the fact nerfs:
* 2 Eldritch set change
* LoDS change
* RoQB change

It's a rough place to be for sure.


This was before my time - what were the nerfs on those three?

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Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #100

ini wrote:

Further you are talking about a class that has born the brunt of most token after the fact nerfs:
* 2 Eldritch set change
* LoDS change
* RoQB change

It's a rough place to be for sure.


This was before my time - what were the nerfs on those three?


* 2 Eldritch set change - The set bonuses were different for all classes, but when I collected the items it as +10 healing and +1 level for Druid (back when Druid could heal ~ as well as Clerics and this was our main identity)
* LoDS change - Required Wisdom to use and duplicated the spell on two targets - this allowed both Druids and Clerics to heal very effectively and was changed to make the game more difficult
* RoQB change - Was limited to 5 spells in the design process to allow Druids and Clerics to use the Charm of Spell Swapping, but was recently changed recently not to work with swapped spells - only what is checked off the card

Also should have put Iktomi's on the list which was understood to allow polymorphing between shapes when designed, but polymorph was changed to only one shape per room after it was created - likely to prevent Druids from double dipping on a defensive and offensive elemental type.

Other items changed in the same period I can think of were:
* Mad Evoker Charm (Wizards)
* Cloak of Shadowskin (All Classes)

There might be more, but this is what I recall at the moment.

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Last edit: by OrionW.

Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #101

OrionW wrote: This is not how the game works when you pre-arrange parties and have tokens to play different classes. Spending thousands of dollars on tokens to be told you should never be good at anything doesn't feel so great. The game doesn't need a jack of all trades at higher levels of play.


Yep, being a Fighter is tough.

OrionW wrote: Further you are talking about a class that has born the brunt of most token after the fact nerfs:
* 2 Eldritch set change
* LoDS change
* RoQB change

It's a rough place to be for sure.


Yep, being a Cleric is tough.

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Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #102

Fiddy wrote:

OrionW wrote: This is not how the game works when you pre-arrange parties and have tokens to play different classes. Spending thousands of dollars on tokens to be told you should never be good at anything doesn't feel so great. The game doesn't need a jack of all trades at higher levels of play.


Yep, being a Fighter is tough.

OrionW wrote: Further you are talking about a class that has born the brunt of most token after the fact nerfs:
* 2 Eldritch set change
* LoDS change
* RoQB change

It's a rough place to be for sure.


Yep, being a Cleric is tough.


Agreed on Fighter being in a rough spot - the class gets no favors from being linked with Dwarf Fighter, which is awesome (Crit and Taunt). I hope Fighter can get the x3 crit ability when the class cards are reprinted at least.

Edit: For completeness I will address the Cleric quote as well - They have taken their share of after the fact nerfs as well. I think the awesome class legendary makes up for some of the sting, but even so it sucks if you buy a token only to have the power level reduced.

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Last edit: by OrionW.

Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #103

Why were Rangers left off of the Tome of Useful Scrolls? Between the legendary neck and Rangers being on several scrolls it feels like they should be able to use it.

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Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #104

Kenban wrote: Why were Rangers left off of the Tome of Useful Scrolls? Between the legendary neck and Rangers being on several scrolls it feels like they should be able to use it.


Jeff has said that Scrolls are moving away from Rangers and Paladins.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=686&id=254398&start=12#424569

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Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #105

Uncommon Eyepatch of Wealsight still shows Darkwood Plank. Should be Mystic Silk if the intent is to keep it the same as the 2022 eye patch.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi

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Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #106

OrionW wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

OrionW wrote: This is not how the game works when you pre-arrange parties and have tokens to play different classes. Spending thousands of dollars on tokens to be told you should never be good at anything doesn't feel so great. The game doesn't need a jack of all trades at higher levels of play.


Yep, being a Fighter is tough.


Agreed on Fighter being in a rough spot - the class gets no favors from being linked with Dwarf Fighter, which is awesome (Crit and Taunt). I hope Fighter can get the x3 crit ability when the class cards are reprinted at least.


2024... year of the HF. Another convert right here.

I don’t think the x3 helps any HF but the legendary level guys. I’m convinced we need a support option like a class-specific tactics slot to represent their training/additional feats. If I get unlazy I’ll do a write up.

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Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #107

Lequinian wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

OrionW wrote: This is not how the game works when you pre-arrange parties and have tokens to play different classes. Spending thousands of dollars on tokens to be told you should never be good at anything doesn't feel so great. The game doesn't need a jack of all trades at higher levels of play.


Yep, being a Fighter is tough.


Agreed on Fighter being in a rough spot - the class gets no favors from being linked with Dwarf Fighter, which is awesome (Crit and Taunt). I hope Fighter can get the x3 crit ability when the class cards are reprinted at least.


2024... year of the HF. Another convert right here.

I don’t think the x3 helps any HF but the legendary level guys. I’m convinced we need a support option like a class-specific tactics slot to represent their training/additional feats. If I get unlazy I’ll do a write up.

#fightforfighters2024

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Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round) 5 months 2 weeks ago #108

Jeff Martin wrote:

Josh M. wrote: On the UR Necklace of the Zephyr, what does "No mods allowed" mean?

I notice the UR tome got shifted from an Instant Action to a free action. Is there a reason for that? It didn't seem all that powerful to begin with, it feels even less so now.


Thanks for the feedback!

Necklace - you cannot modify the spell for extra damage in any way -- just like with the Bracelets.


TL;DR: Don't print Necklace of the Zephr with the restriction that spells not be modifiable, drop it and do something else.

Details:

This is a huge bummer for me; I think this token sailed through design without comment because everyone though it was OK, and the spells were modifiable, just as those cast through Ring of Quick Blessing's spell portion which had the same wording.

I feel given what Ring of Quick Blessing does, having a a similar effect in the neck slot and allowing modifications was reasonable.

There is an existing Rare neck item (Necklace of the Norns ) with a similar effect to the proposed Zephyr effect, except:

1. You don't have to mark the spell you cast with a free action off your card.
2. But it is limited to 1st level spells, and must be used in the round you case a 1st level spell.

This iteration of Necklace of the Zephyr is arguably worse than:

* rare Neclkace of the Norms.
* rare Ring of the Norns which has the same effect as Necklace of the Norns but is limited to level 0 spells and in a ring slot
* Ultra Rare Earcuff of Energy , which has the same effect as Necklace of the Norns but in the Ear slot
* The 15 year old 3c combo token Bracelets of the Zephyr , due to the wrist to neck slot move which is both a more powerful slot in general, and also prevents equipping the new Necklace of the Zephyr with class based relics and legendries

I have a strong preference to not printing this token at UR.

Rather than printing this, I suggest to drop it and put in a reprint people were asking for.

If there is a desire to have a free action spell something-or-other in the neck slot this year, here are some ways that the tokens power could be placed somewhere between where it is now and the prior versions where (people thought?) spells cast with it were modified by spell healing/damage modifiers.

* Spells can be modified, but are limited to some levels

* Recast an unmodified version of a spell just cast, with a wider range of spells (Level 0-2?, Level 1-2? etc.)

* Cast modified spells, but limit spell type somehow: Only healing spells, only damage spells, or only healing and damage spells, etc.

* Spells can be modified, but the number of activations is reduced from 1/room down to 2 or 3/game

* Spells can be modified, but can only be cast as a free action when some other precondition is met:
+ The party wins initiative
+ Party rolls a 15+ on initiative
+ You damaged a monster last round
+ A monster damage you last round
+ Only usable during the 3rd round of combat
etc.

For some of those brainstormed effects, I think it also should move out of the neck slot. For example, if it were to allow you to cast a spell as a free action when the party rolls a 15+ on initiative, this would seem to be a spellcaster version of Charm of Quick Strike, and might be better in the charm slot.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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