TOPIC: Final-Final Token Images (minor tweaks this round)

At this point, I have a suggestion for the erstwhile Robe of Harmony's new name:

Robe of Disharmony

Given the pressure on charm slots and how commonly I see Bard Dart builds and how useful for everyone besides clerics, Robe of Spell Swapping would be interesting. But, since that does much less for clerics, probably not the time to bring this up. If only monks could cast spells, Robe of Spell Swapping in 2024 would be ... an idea.

Can always yank it all together and replace with something simple that gives some love to, um, Fighter or something.

Goggles of Anticipation could be:
+1 hit and +1 reflex

Which would be more of a peer to Heimdal sight. Invisible only comes up every now and then while reflex is generally an every dungeon check at least once. Anticipation would still be better than Heimdal in general, but not quite as obviously so.

I'm going to make the UR Robes into Robes of Healing with +3 to ALL healing spells (0-level included).

I'm going to drop the healing bonus on the UR Gauntlet of Divine Guidance down to +1 healing since all this healing is coming on board this year.

Sorry about the miscommunication on the Necklace of the Zephyr. I figured everyone would know it would work exactly like the Bracelets since the name is the same. I am glad we updated the text! I think it will be a fine UR for newbies.

An updated UR proof is coming.

Jeff Martin wrote: I'm going to make the UR Robes into Robes of Healing with +3 to ALL healing spells (0-level included).

I'm going to drop the healing bonus on the UR Gauntlet of Divine Guidance down to +1 healing since all this healing is coming on board this year.

Sorry about the miscommunication on the Necklace of the Zephyr. I figured everyone would know it would work exactly like the Bracelets since the name is the same. I am glad we updated the text! I think it will be a fine UR for newbies.

An updated UR proof is coming.

If you're making the robes a + to all healing spells, perhaps it might be best to do +2 on the robes and +2 on the gauntlets so there isn't so much concentrated on a single token? This might just be me trying to protect the gauntlets, though. I was really pumped for +3 hit and +2 healing, and I haven't really thought it through.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Rob F wrote: The UR Robe seems like it's trying to do too much. Plus it seems a bit OP. Based on others comments and Jeff's responses why not do the following:

For this year - Robe of Healing:
1st-3rd level healing Spells get +3 total healing. Keep the classes Bard, Cleric, Druid.

Next year: Robe of ????
1st-3rd level damage Spells & polymorph damage get +3 total damage. Make the classes Druid and Wizards.

This satisfies all classes and gives the Druids an interesting choice to make between wearing a healing robe or a damage robe based on the build route they want to pursue. And you could keep it +4 if you wanted but that seems a bit OP. Plus you now have one less Token to worry about designing next year!

I like this idea. Can we all pretend that I thought of this?

Not so happy to see Druids getting knifed at the end of the process, and definitely feels like a repeat of the Bead of Critical Strike again. Hopefully the class gets a major redesign and Druids can actually start to get the token support to specialize in something.

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, please see my earlier post, the only thing this proposal does is screw over the Druid. It gives the Cleric the current robe which enhances all their healing spells and it gives the Wizard a robe next year which enhances all their Damage spells AND Polymorph damage, both of those classes come out great. But, it leaves the Druid having to choose between two incomplete robes, one of which enhances Druid healing and one of which enhances Druid damage. Clerics & Wizards would get to boost nearly 100% of their spells, but the Druid would only be able to boost about 50% of Druid spells regardless of which Robe they choose.

Leaving the current robe as-is and designing a Wizard robe next year is the fair solution to Clerics, Wizards, and Druids.

Welcome to the idea of being the jack of all trades, master of none class? Additionally, if you're really planning on going all in on one aspect of your build out in advance (primary healer / damage spells / poly melee), then you really don't have much sacrificing to do.

The primary healer druid goes healing robes, and spell swaps most damage to healing spells.
The primary spell damage druid goes spell damage + poly robes and spell swaps most healing spells for damage spells.
The poly only druid chooses between a relic level damage buff and No AC, or +2 Str and some AC.

This post and many others act like the Druid can "choose" whether to be a damage spell build or a healing spell build, which simply isn't the case - unless they are using a Charm of Spell Swapping, and I personally don't know a single Druid which is using that to try to go all healing or damage, and be either a 2nd rate Cleric or 2nd rate Wizard.

Under this proposal, the Cleric would be able to boost 10 healing spells and the Wizard would be able to boost 14 damage spells. Both of those are well worth the choice of the robe. The Druid on the other hand would only be able to boost 7 healing spells (4 of which are one point Cure Light Wounds Spells) or 7 damage spells (half of what Wizards could do). In my opinion neither robe is worth the Druid using when they only affect half of the spells.

The Clerics and Wizards are already far better spellcasting classes than the Druid, I don't know why proposals like this keep trying to make the gap larger and larger. The original proposal gave all three spellcasting classes robes worth wearing, the new proposal only gives worthwhile robes to Clerics and Wizards.

Mike Steele wrote: Under this proposal, the Cleric would be able to boost 10 healing spells and the Wizard would be able to boost 14 damage spells. Both of those are well worth the choice of the robe. The Druid on the other hand would only be able to boost 7 healing spells (4 of which are one point Cure Light Wounds Spells) or 7 damage spells (half of what Wizards could do). In my opinion neither robe is worth the Druid using when they only affect half of the spells.

A druid that focused on healing and had a Charm of Spell Swapping could use this UR to boost 16 healing spells. They can actually get more healing out of it than a Cleric can. It's not as good for damage assuming a damage version does come out next year, max of 10 damage spells boosted. Not saying it's necessarily something everyone would want to do, but the Druid's could still get a great deal of power out of the robe as it currently stands. Hopefully the Druid's identity gets a bit more focused after the class card redesign so they can really start to shine.

Josh M. wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Under this proposal, the Cleric would be able to boost 10 healing spells and the Wizard would be able to boost 14 damage spells. Both of those are well worth the choice of the robe. The Druid on the other hand would only be able to boost 7 healing spells (4 of which are one point Cure Light Wounds Spells) or 7 damage spells (half of what Wizards could do). In my opinion neither robe is worth the Druid using when they only affect half of the spells.

A druid that focused on healing and had a Charm of Spell Swapping could use this UR to boost 16 healing spells. They can actually get more healing out of it than a Cleric can. It's not as good for damage assuming a damage version does come out next year, max of 10 damage spells boosted. Not saying it's necessarily something everyone would want to do, but the Druid's could still get a great deal of power out of the robe as it currently stands. Hopefully the Druid's identity gets a bit more focused after the class card redesign so they can really start to shine.

Isn't walking into a party and being able to fill whatever role is necessary where Druid already shines?

No cleric in party? No problem, I'll spell swap this run to healing and equip LoDS.

No Wizard in party? No problem, I'll spell swap this run to spell damage and probably make some ranged attacks.

We have 2 wizards and a cleric? Basically better than fighter poly melee here I come.

Endgame wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Under this proposal, the Cleric would be able to boost 10 healing spells and the Wizard would be able to boost 14 damage spells. Both of those are well worth the choice of the robe. The Druid on the other hand would only be able to boost 7 healing spells (4 of which are one point Cure Light Wounds Spells) or 7 damage spells (half of what Wizards could do). In my opinion neither robe is worth the Druid using when they only affect half of the spells.

A druid that focused on healing and had a Charm of Spell Swapping could use this UR to boost 16 healing spells. They can actually get more healing out of it than a Cleric can. It's not as good for damage assuming a damage version does come out next year, max of 10 damage spells boosted. Not saying it's necessarily something everyone would want to do, but the Druid's could still get a great deal of power out of the robe as it currently stands. Hopefully the Druid's identity gets a bit more focused after the class card redesign so they can really start to shine.

Isn't walking into a party and being able to fill whatever role is necessary where Druid already shines?

No cleric in party? No problem, I'll spell swap this run to healing and equip LoDS.

No Wizard in party? No problem, I'll spell swap this run to spell damage and probably make some ranged attacks.

We have 2 wizards and a cleric? Basically better than fighter poly melee here I come.

This is not how the game works when you pre-arrange parties and have tokens to play different classes. Spending thousands of dollars on tokens to be told you should never be good at anything doesn't feel so great. The game doesn't need a jack of all trades at higher levels of play.

Further you are talking about a class that has born the brunt of most token after the fact nerfs:
* 2 Eldritch set change
* LoDS change
* RoQB change

It's a rough place to be for sure.

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Under this proposal, the Cleric would be able to boost 10 healing spells and the Wizard would be able to boost 14 damage spells. Both of those are well worth the choice of the robe. The Druid on the other hand would only be able to boost 7 healing spells (4 of which are one point Cure Light Wounds Spells) or 7 damage spells (half of what Wizards could do). In my opinion neither robe is worth the Druid using when they only affect half of the spells.

A druid that focused on healing and had a Charm of Spell Swapping could use this UR to boost 16 healing spells. They can actually get more healing out of it than a Cleric can. It's not as good for damage assuming a damage version does come out next year, max of 10 damage spells boosted. Not saying it's necessarily something everyone would want to do, but the Druid's could still get a great deal of power out of the robe as it currently stands. Hopefully the Druid's identity gets a bit more focused after the class card redesign so they can really start to shine.

Isn't walking into a party and being able to fill whatever role is necessary where Druid already shines?

No cleric in party? No problem, I'll spell swap this run to healing and equip LoDS.

No Wizard in party? No problem, I'll spell swap this run to spell damage and probably make some ranged attacks.

We have 2 wizards and a cleric? Basically better than fighter poly melee here I come.

This is not how the game works when you pre-arrange parties and have tokens to play different classes. Spending thousands of dollars on tokens to be told you should never be good at anything doesn't feel so great. The game doesn't need a jack of all trades at higher levels of play.

Further you are talking about a class that has born the brunt of most token after the fact nerfs:
* 2 Eldritch set change
* LoDS change
* RoQB change

It's a rough place to be for sure.

When your party takes 90 puzzle damage per person over a run on some runs, having some extra healing come from the druid is very nice on an as needed basis. As a Cleric main for VTD, I've found it very helpful to have a druid along for the occasional flex healing support or damage support depending on exactly how the run goes.

Josh M. wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Under this proposal, the Cleric would be able to boost 10 healing spells and the Wizard would be able to boost 14 damage spells. Both of those are well worth the choice of the robe. The Druid on the other hand would only be able to boost 7 healing spells (4 of which are one point Cure Light Wounds Spells) or 7 damage spells (half of what Wizards could do). In my opinion neither robe is worth the Druid using when they only affect half of the spells.

A druid that focused on healing and had a Charm of Spell Swapping could use this UR to boost 16 healing spells. They can actually get more healing out of it than a Cleric can. It's not as good for damage assuming a damage version does come out next year, max of 10 damage spells boosted. Not saying it's necessarily something everyone would want to do, but the Druid's could still get a great deal of power out of the robe as it currently stands. Hopefully the Druid's identity gets a bit more focused after the class card redesign so they can really start to shine.

I wish people would stop using Charm of Spell Swapping as an excuse to make tokens worse for Druids. If a player wanted to be full healing or full damage, they're much better off playing a Cleric or Wizard. I don't know anyone who is using a Charm of Spell Swapping to go full damage or healing - is there anyone in these discussions that does use CoSS to do full damage or healing as a Druid? I think nearly all Druid players play with the spells on the card and don't make an attempt to go full damage or healing spells. The original robe design worked for all Druid versions, as would a +3 Robe of Focus. The current design only works for Clerics and Wizards, not Druids.

OrionW wrote: This is not how the game works when you pre-arrange parties and have tokens to play different classes. Spending thousands of dollars on tokens to be told you should never be good at anything doesn't feel so great. The game doesn't need a jack of all trades at higher levels of play.

This largely feels like a big point to bring up during class cards redesign and an inevitable result for a class that hasn't been given a single well-defined party role.