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TOPIC: FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!)

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #85

OrionW wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

ini wrote:

OrionW wrote:
Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.


I'd love to see Druid get better polymorph support so that its their thing. It makes sense, its super cool, and its the thing that interests me most in Druid. Elf wizard can lose it and get something else that makes them unique, since it's pretty sad on them and doesn't really fit anyways. That's somewhat tangential though.


I hope so too, but unfortunately Pouch of Tulz + Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll)+Amulet of Wild (2023) is better than Iktomi's. Being left of the Bead of Guided Strike also will continue to really hurt the polymorph build until they can get guided strike on something other than the bracers. Hopefully the redesigned class cards start to clean this all up, but right now the polymorph build is better than a melee Bard build and the Paladin; it is going to take a lot. :)

Please back that up with a build link.


Iktomi's: 11 average damage
Pouch of Tulz + Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll) + Amulet of Wild (2023): 11.25 average damage

Other abilities on Iktomi's are not compelling (maybe casting while polymorphed but in most cases you can just end polymorph if you are that desperate to need to cast a spell).

Edit: Iktomi's is just good enough to be a regular legendary and is not in the same power level as the other class legendaries.


Until the gal with Iktomi's uses their Pouch of Tulz and a +6 STR potion to do 14 average damage, or their extra Free Action to cast a ~30 point damage spell with Ring of Quick Blessing (which the other player can't do, because they've both already used their Free Action and they can't cast while polymorphed).

I fear that continuing to pursue this line of argument will erode the credibility of proponents of Druidry.

They erode credibility because most other people here do not think the term "better" means:

"0.25 more average weapon damage before adding in any other melee modifying effects, at the cost of a free action, consumption of a consumable, and use of the 1/room ability of pouch of tulz."

If Druids continually argue that the above statement accurately captures the concept of "better" when comparing two options, they are going to sow confusion with their statements, and generate unnecessary arguments because people would be disputing the definition of better, not some underlying claim.

This in turn may have a long term harmful effect of leading people to dismiss arguments for Druidic improvements without giving them the full consideration they are due.

For example, if the underlying claim is:
* "Iktomi's power level is much lower than that of the Monk or Fighter Legendary" - then I would tend to agree.
* However I would not agree that in the scenario you describe above where one player uses more actions and more resources to deal 0.25 more average melee damage on a hit is "better" than the alternative


I prefer using the rare item, because I think it shows the absurdity of the the power level of Iktomi's in stark contrast. A class legendary should be worth more than +4 damage.

But hey if free action spells are your jam Shirt of the Fae + Necklace of the Zepher is going to be better than Iktomi's + Arcanum Shirt. Anyway you look at it come 2023 Iktomi's is likely not best in slot.

I leave this for you to ponder while I do some other things.

+23 hit / +62 poly damage
4 FA spells at +22 damage

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2de3ba1e-856a-4905-8f3f-2279a862c820

Note this is not the highest damage Druid you can make for a typical dungeon.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #86

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

ini wrote:

OrionW wrote:
Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.


I'd love to see Druid get better polymorph support so that its their thing. It makes sense, its super cool, and its the thing that interests me most in Druid. Elf wizard can lose it and get something else that makes them unique, since it's pretty sad on them and doesn't really fit anyways. That's somewhat tangential though.


I hope so too, but unfortunately Pouch of Tulz + Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll)+Amulet of Wild (2023) is better than Iktomi's. Being left of the Bead of Guided Strike also will continue to really hurt the polymorph build until they can get guided strike on something other than the bracers. Hopefully the redesigned class cards start to clean this all up, but right now the polymorph build is better than a melee Bard build and the Paladin; it is going to take a lot. :)

Please back that up with a build link.


Iktomi's: 11 average damage
Pouch of Tulz + Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll) + Amulet of Wild (2023): 11.25 average damage

Other abilities on Iktomi's are not compelling (maybe casting while polymorphed but in most cases you can just end polymorph if you are that desperate to need to cast a spell).

Edit: Iktomi's is just good enough to be a regular legendary and is not in the same power level as the other class legendaries.


Until the gal with Iktomi's uses their Pouch of Tulz and a +6 STR potion to do 14 average damage, or their extra Free Action to cast a ~30 point damage spell with Ring of Quick Blessing (which the other player can't do, because they've both already used their Free Action and they can't cast while polymorphed).

I fear that continuing to pursue this line of argument will erode the credibility of proponents of Druidry.

They erode credibility because most other people here do not think the term "better" means:

"0.25 more average weapon damage before adding in any other melee modifying effects, at the cost of a free action, consumption of a consumable, and use of the 1/room ability of pouch of tulz."

If Druids continually argue that the above statement accurately captures the concept of "better" when comparing two options, they are going to sow confusion with their statements, and generate unnecessary arguments because people would be disputing the definition of better, not some underlying claim.

This in turn may have a long term harmful effect of leading people to dismiss arguments for Druidic improvements without giving them the full consideration they are due.

For example, if the underlying claim is:
* "Iktomi's power level is much lower than that of the Monk or Fighter Legendary" - then I would tend to agree.
* However I would not agree that in the scenario you describe above where one player uses more actions and more resources to deal 0.25 more average melee damage on a hit is "better" than the alternative


I prefer using the rare item, because I think it shows the absurdity of the the power level of Iktomi's in stark contrast. A class legendary should be worth more than +4 damage.

But hey if free action spells are your jam Shirt of the Fae + Necklace of the Zepher is going to be better than Iktomi's + Arcanum Shirt. Anyway you look at it come 2023 Iktomi's is likely not best in slot.

I leave this for you to ponder while I do some other things.

+23 hit / +62 poly damage
4 FA spells at +22 damage

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2de3ba1e-856a-4905-8f3f-2279a862c820

Note this is not the highest damage Druid you can make for a typical dungeon.


45 HPs, saves are terrible, and no charm of awakened synergy. Come back with a serious build.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #87

At this point just lock the thread because we are well off the rails here.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #88

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote: I leave this for you to ponder while I do some other things.

+23 hit / +62 poly damage
4 FA spells at +22 damage

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2de3ba1e-856a-4905-8f3f-2279a862c820

Note this is not the highest damage Druid you can make for a typical dungeon.


45 HPs, saves are terrible, and no charm of awakened synergy. Come back with a serious build.

The point is to start from the maximum possible damage build, and allow the reader to adjust to whatever their requirements are. What’s great about doing this type of comparison is we can actually set any class to its maximum damage and glean insights on what’s possible. For example:

The maximum damage Fighter
+32 hit / +57 damage

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/e9493a91-912c-4fe4-b061-5e532454e504

All things being equal, the Druid deals more damage, has better saves, but has less HP. In exchange for fewer HP, though, the Druid has more effective HP, as the Druid can heal themselves during a run.

For End user customization, Both builds can swap out damage for a CoAS if you want, or damage for better saves via charm of brooching, but the effects are identical.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #89

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote: I leave this for you to ponder while I do some other things.

+23 hit / +62 poly damage
4 FA spells at +22 damage

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2de3ba1e-856a-4905-8f3f-2279a862c820

Note this is not the highest damage Druid you can make for a typical dungeon.


45 HPs, saves are terrible, and no charm of awakened synergy. Come back with a serious build.

The point is to start from the maximum possible damage build, and allow the reader to adjust to whatever their requirements are. What’s great about doing this type of comparison is we can actually set any class to its maximum damage and glean insights on what’s possible. For example:

The maximum damage Fighter
+32 hit / +57 damage

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/e9493a91-912c-4fe4-b061-5e532454e504

All things being equal, the Druid deals more damage, has better saves, but has less HP. In exchange for fewer HP, though, the Druid has more effective HP, as the Druid can heal themselves during a run.

For End user customization, Both builds can swap out damage for a CoAS if you want, or damage for better saves via charm of brooching, but the effects are identical.


1) Fighter can trade +hit for +dmg and can damage more than 1 creature
2) I have taken 60 damage in 1 round in a Patron run (the dead don’t do damage)
3) Charm of awakened synergy is required equipment if you are going to put TEs in. Winning initiative matters a lot.

I agree we have fallen into old habits and the thread should be locked.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #90

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote: I leave this for you to ponder while I do some other things.

+23 hit / +62 poly damage
4 FA spells at +22 damage

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/2de3ba1e-856a-4905-8f3f-2279a862c820

Note this is not the highest damage Druid you can make for a typical dungeon.


45 HPs, saves are terrible, and no charm of awakened synergy. Come back with a serious build.

The point is to start from the maximum possible damage build, and allow the reader to adjust to whatever their requirements are. What’s great about doing this type of comparison is we can actually set any class to its maximum damage and glean insights on what’s possible. For example:

The maximum damage Fighter
+32 hit / +57 damage

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/e9493a91-912c-4fe4-b061-5e532454e504

All things being equal, the Druid deals more damage, has better saves, but has less HP. In exchange for fewer HP, though, the Druid has more effective HP, as the Druid can heal themselves during a run.

For End user customization, Both builds can swap out damage for a CoAS if you want, or damage for better saves via charm of brooching, but the effects are identical.


Poor Fighter. I love Fighter and Fighter's always been underpowered. But yes, lock thread :)
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi
The topic has been locked.

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #91

But getting back on topic I think the UR Boots should go to +3AC.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi
The topic has been locked.

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #92

Poor Fighter. I love Fighter and Fighter's always been underpowered. But yes, lock thread :)


Thank you for remembering us. I almost feel guilty for literally eating popcorn while reading the spellcaster Battle Royale stage of annual token development. ;)

Next year - year of the HF... all agreed?
Last edit: by Lequinian.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #93

Next year we need a wizard robe and something nice for fighters and dwarves.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #94

Sure. Armor transmute where Fighter gets some bonus like "Choose a Set at beginning of run, Cheop's Chameleon Plate belongs to that Set". Weapon that gets some Fighter bonus since barbarian and dwarf have had those. Some token where Fighter gets higher Will save.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #95

Lequinian wrote: Next year - year of the HF... all agreed?


Yes. 100%
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #96

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme. :P


My thoughts exactly. Mike lobby's extremely hard for his Druid and that's cool, but at the end of the day the Druid is not supposed to be Cleric + Wizard.


Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.


a. Classes shouldn't be balanced entirely around Epic.

b. For years it has been the case that Druid's can out-heal UR Clerics if they want to at the high end due to Charm of Spell Swapping and having more spell slots. Has this changed?


The Cleric can now Raise the Dead at full HP, cast second level spells as instants, and call for Divine Intervention, so I'd say that gives them a leg up. :)


I forgot about resurrection on the relic and legendary cleric necklaces! So; stipulated: Clerics are better at healing than druids at ~Relic+ level play.


As you stipulated, Clerics are better than Druids at Relic+ level. They're also far better at healing than Druids at the Rare and below level. The only scenario where Druids can come close in total healing is when you include Ultra-Rares but nothing higher (which is a meaningless scenario), and only because of the Charm of Spell Swapping. And in that case, the Druid is sacrificing nearly all damage spells for healing spells, so it's basically a Cleric-light class at that point, with lesser armor. Clerics are without question the best healers in the game, which they should be.
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