TOPIC: FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!)

ini wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Azzy wrote: When: "Wizards shouldn't be on this token because then wizards might use it." is unironically being used as the only argument in favor of not letting wizards use robes, you know something is amiss...

I think we have to hope INT does something in the charachter card redesign, and then the INT granting properties of the Moonhide and Sunhide robes will matter, and also open the door to UR robes with some effect other than DEX or AC.

While this is true and I agree with you, that doesn't invalidate Azzy's point. "X class shouldn't be on this token because X class might use it." is super flawed. Another instance of that phrase could be "Druids shouldn't be able to use Bead of Bounty because they might find it useful." There are still no playable Wizard UR robes printed since 2017 (and none before that) and there's no real argument about why Wizards shouldn't be on this one.

I don't think any class intentionally has a slot they simply don't have options for. If there's nothing ever printed for the slot, then there will continue to never be tradeoffs to make in that slot.

I don't think I disagree with you that much.

I do think there is a problem with a new UR that strongly challenges an existing class focused legendary in the same slot in general though.

In the past I feel slots had a more cohesive identity, and Torso was about defense, and Wizards thematically don't get great defensive options.

Over the last few years there has been an increasing push into offensive features of the torso slot, starting with random +1 STR uncommon torso items, and culminating in the Death Knight Set and these robes.

I would be happy if Torso slot stepped back from it's offensive development; but if it doesn't eventually Wizards should get in on that bounty - and thematically it might make _more_ sense for the Wizard torso slot to be more offensively oriented than any other class (because it's obviously _not_ very defensively oriented).

I'm trying to think if there is another slot that is so similarly bad for a given class.

I can't think of an example like that (other than offhand for Wizards and Rogues...)

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme.

I vote we strike this entire conversation.

Also, come to think of it, since when can druids wear metal pieces of armor? Pretty much every edition that I've played (maybe it's some wacky 4th edition thing that I'm not familiar with), a big part of the class was that they only wear armor pieces that are cloth/hide/wood/etc. I think to make the most sense of things, they should be dropped off of the greaves and gauntlets this year and in the future probably not give metal armor to stay true to the druid class.

The Druid restriction around metal Armor was pretty routinely enforced historically in TD - but that seems to have gone by the wayside with Lucky Mail and Death Knight Mail.

I guess that should give Clerics hope on Edged weapons in the future; maybe the Sword of the Sun is the same dam breaking for Cleric edged weapons that Redoubt Mail was for Druids and metal armor.

Rob F wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme.

My thoughts exactly. Mike lobby's extremely hard for his Druid and that's cool, but at the end of the day the Druid is not supposed to be Cleric + Wizard.

Yeah - it should be cleric * wizard + barbarian (from polymorph)

OrionW wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme.

My thoughts exactly. Mike lobby's extremely hard for his Druid and that's cool, but at the end of the day the Druid is not supposed to be Cleric + Wizard.

Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

a. Classes shouldn't be balanced entirely around Epic.

b. For years it has been the case that Druid's can out-heal UR Clerics if they want to at the high end due to Charm of Spell Swapping and having more spell slots. Has this changed?

ini wrote:

OrionW wrote:
Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

I'd love to see Druid get better polymorph support so that its their thing. It makes sense, its super cool, and its the thing that interests me most in Druid. Elf wizard can lose it and get something else that makes them unique, since it's pretty sad on them and doesn't really fit anyways. That's somewhat tangential though.

Like Wands! Oh... wait.

Maybe scrolls though .

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

ini wrote:

OrionW wrote:
Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

I'd love to see Druid get better polymorph support so that its their thing. It makes sense, its super cool, and its the thing that interests me most in Druid. Elf wizard can lose it and get something else that makes them unique, since it's pretty sad on them and doesn't really fit anyways. That's somewhat tangential though.

I hope so too, but unfortunately Pouch of Tulz + Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll)+Amulet of Wild (2023) is better than Iktomi's. Being left of the Bead of Guided Strike also will continue to really hurt the polymorph build until they can get guided strike on something other than the bracers. Hopefully the redesigned class cards start to clean this all up, but right now the polymorph build is better than a melee Bard build and the Paladin; it is going to take a lot.

Please back that up with a build link.

Iktomi's: 11 average damage
Pouch of Tulz + Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll) + Amulet of Wild (2023): 11.25 average damage

Other abilities on Iktomi's are not compelling (maybe casting while polymorphed but in most cases you can just end polymorph if you are that desperate to need to cast a spell).

Edit: Iktomi's is just good enough to be a regular legendary and is not in the same power level as the other class legendaries.

Until the gal with Iktomi's uses their Pouch of Tulz and a +6 STR potion to do 14 average damage, or their extra Free Action to cast a ~30 point damage spell with Ring of Quick Blessing (which the other player can't do, because they've both already used their Free Action and they can't cast while polymorphed).

I fear that continuing to pursue this line of argument will erode the credibility of proponents of Druidry.

They erode credibility because most other people here do not think the term "better" means:

"0.25 more average weapon damage before adding in any other melee modifying effects, at the cost of a free action, consumption of a consumable, and use of the 1/room ability of pouch of tulz."

If Druids continually argue that the above statement accurately captures the concept of "better" when comparing two options, they are going to sow confusion with their statements, and generate unnecessary arguments because people would be disputing the definition of better, not some underlying claim.

This in turn may have a long term harmful effect of leading people to dismiss arguments for Druidic improvements without giving them the full consideration they are due.

For example, if the underlying claim is:
* "Iktomi's power level is much lower than that of the Monk or Fighter Legendary" - then I would tend to agree.
* However I would not agree that in the scenario you describe above where one player uses more actions and more resources to deal 0.25 more average melee damage on a hit is "better" than the alternative

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: It took a LOT longer to get to DrUids vs everyone this year than in typical years.

I know lol - I was just going to post about how design this year went pretty well, even with a new UTRE, and that it is a relief that the class based legendaries are behind us as it seems to have been very contentious.

But when there is nothing else to talk about, I guess we tend to fall back into old patterns.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme.

My thoughts exactly. Mike lobby's extremely hard for his Druid and that's cool, but at the end of the day the Druid is not supposed to be Cleric + Wizard.

Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

a. Classes shouldn't be balanced entirely around Epic.

b. For years it has been the case that Druid's can out-heal UR Clerics if they want to at the high end due to Charm of Spell Swapping and having more spell slots. Has this changed?

The Cleric can now Raise the Dead at full HP, cast second level spells as instants, and call for Divine Intervention, so I'd say that gives them a leg up.

Flik wrote: Please everyone can we take the druid discussion on power levels and this and that and keep the posts here about cleaning up the verbiage on the near final token proposals?

This kind of appeal usually works if you create a new note for that discussion and link it from your request note here.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme.

My thoughts exactly. Mike lobby's extremely hard for his Druid and that's cool, but at the end of the day the Druid is not supposed to be Cleric + Wizard.

Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

a. Classes shouldn't be balanced entirely around Epic.

b. For years it has been the case that Druid's can out-heal UR Clerics if they want to at the high end due to Charm of Spell Swapping and having more spell slots. Has this changed?

The Cleric can now Raise the Dead at full HP, cast second level spells as instants, and call for Divine Intervention, so I'd say that gives them a leg up.

I forgot about resurrection on the relic and legendary cleric necklaces! So; stipulated: Clerics are better at healing than druids at ~Relic+ level play.

Dave wrote:

Fiddy wrote: As someone who is not primarily a Wizard, the robes seem confusing. The more conditional spell bonuses that get added, the less likely they will be used correctly. Having the bonus on the party card seems like it would be preferred.

If we want to do something that is not just a flat Focus bonus, how about a Robes of the Cabal? +2/+3/+4 depending on number equipped in the party?

Robes of Cabal!!! Yes, please.

I want some Robes Pierre: VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

Matthew Hayward wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

ini wrote:

OrionW wrote:
Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

I'd love to see Druid get better polymorph support so that its their thing. It makes sense, its super cool, and its the thing that interests me most in Druid. Elf wizard can lose it and get something else that makes them unique, since it's pretty sad on them and doesn't really fit anyways. That's somewhat tangential though.

I hope so too, but unfortunately Pouch of Tulz + Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll)+Amulet of Wild (2023) is better than Iktomi's. Being left of the Bead of Guided Strike also will continue to really hurt the polymorph build until they can get guided strike on something other than the bracers. Hopefully the redesigned class cards start to clean this all up, but right now the polymorph build is better than a melee Bard build and the Paladin; it is going to take a lot.

Please back that up with a build link.

Iktomi's: 11 average damage
Pouch of Tulz + Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll) + Amulet of Wild (2023): 11.25 average damage

Other abilities on Iktomi's are not compelling (maybe casting while polymorphed but in most cases you can just end polymorph if you are that desperate to need to cast a spell).

Edit: Iktomi's is just good enough to be a regular legendary and is not in the same power level as the other class legendaries.

Until the gal with Iktomi's uses their Pouch of Tulz and a +6 STR potion to do 14 average damage, or their extra Free Action to cast a ~30 point damage spell with Ring of Quick Blessing (which the other player can't do, because they've both already used their Free Action and they can't cast while polymorphed).

I fear that continuing to pursue this line of argument will erode the credibility of proponents of Druidry.

They erode credibility because most other people here do not think the term "better" means:

"0.25 more average weapon damage before adding in any other melee modifying effects, at the cost of a free action, consumption of a consumable, and use of the 1/room ability of pouch of tulz."

If Druids continually argue that the above statement accurately captures the concept of "better" when comparing two options, they are going to sow confusion with their statements, and generate unnecessary arguments because people would be disputing the definition of better, not some underlying claim.

This in turn may have a long term harmful effect of leading people to dismiss arguments for Druidic improvements without giving them the full consideration they are due.

For example, if the underlying claim is:
* "Iktomi's power level is much lower than that of the Monk or Fighter Legendary" - then I would tend to agree.
* However I would not agree that in the scenario you describe above where one player uses more actions and more resources to deal 0.25 more average melee damage on a hit is "better" than the alternative

I prefer using the rare item, because I think it shows the absurdity of the the power level of Iktomi's in stark contrast. A class legendary should be worth more than +4 damage.

But hey if free action spells are your jam Shirt of the Fae + Necklace of the Zepher is going to be better than Iktomi's + Arcanum Shirt. Anyway you look at it come 2023 Iktomi's is likely not best in slot.