TOPIC: FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!)

Mike Steele wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme.

I vote we strike this entire conversation.

Also, come to think of it, since when can druids wear metal pieces of armor? Pretty much every edition that I've played (maybe it's some wacky 4th edition thing that I'm not familiar with), a big part of the class was that they only wear armor pieces that are cloth/hide/wood/etc. I think to make the most sense of things, they should be dropped off of the greaves and gauntlets this year and in the future probably not give metal armor to stay true to the druid class.

Azzy wrote: Also, come to think of it, since when can druids wear metal pieces of armor? Pretty much every edition that I've played (maybe it's some wacky 4th edition thing that I'm not familiar with), a big part of the class was that they only wear armor pieces that are cloth/hide/wood/etc. I think to make the most sense of things, they should be dropped off of the greaves and gauntlets this year and in the future probably not give metal armor to stay true to the druid class.

This is actually a really good point, maybe it's coming with the class redesigns?

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme.

My thoughts exactly. Mike lobby's extremely hard for his Druid and that's cool, but at the end of the day the Druid is not supposed to be Cleric + Wizard.

Fiddy wrote: As someone who is not primarily a Wizard, the robes seem confusing. The more conditional spell bonuses that get added, the less likely they will be used correctly. Having the bonus on the party card seems like it would be preferred.

If we want to do something that is not just a flat Focus bonus, how about a Robes of the Cabal? +2/+3/+4 depending on number equipped in the party?

Robes of Cabal!!! Yes, please.

Rob F wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme.

My thoughts exactly. Mike lobby's extremely hard for his Druid and that's cool, but at the end of the day the Druid is not supposed to be Cleric + Wizard.

Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

OrionW wrote:
Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

I'd love to see Druid get better polymorph support so that its their thing. It makes sense, its super cool, and its the thing that interests me most in Druid. Elf wizard can lose it and get something else that makes them unique, since it's pretty sad on them and doesn't really fit anyways. That's somewhat tangential though.

OrionW wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme.

My thoughts exactly. Mike lobby's extremely hard for his Druid and that's cool, but at the end of the day the Druid is not supposed to be Cleric + Wizard.

Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

Agreed, Druid doesn't come close to Cleric + Wizard.

Mike Steele wrote: Agreed, Druid doesn't come close to Cleric + Wizard.

Right but that's the point- if you want to be moderately good at healing AND moderately good at DPS, you should be worse at healing than the focused healer and worse at damage than the focused DPS.

...and also worse than fighters at melee, I guess, since druids want to also be good at polymorphing and just swing melee attacks as well.

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Agreed, Druid doesn't come close to Cleric + Wizard.

Right but that's the point- if you want to be moderately good at healing AND moderately good at DPS, you should be worse at healing than the focused healer and worse at damage than the focused DPS.

...and also worse than fighters at melee, I guess, since druids want to also be good at polymorphing and just swing melee attacks as well.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Druids are worse at healing than Clerics and worse at damage spells than Wizards, and worse at melee damage than several classes. I've never said Druids should be the best at any of those three categories. Are you thinking Druids are actually the best in any of those categories?

ini wrote:

OrionW wrote:
Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

I'd love to see Druid get better polymorph support so that its their thing. It makes sense, its super cool, and its the thing that interests me most in Druid. Elf wizard can lose it and get something else that makes them unique, since it's pretty sad on them and doesn't really fit anyways. That's somewhat tangential though.

I hope so too, but unfortunately Pouch of Tulz + Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll)+Amulet of Wild (2023) is better than Iktomi's. Being left of the Bead of Guided Strike also will continue to really hurt the polymorph build until they can get guided strike on something other than the bracers. Hopefully the redesigned class cards start to clean this all up, but right now the polymorph build is better than a melee Bard build and the Paladin; it is going to take a lot.

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Agreed, Druid doesn't come close to Cleric + Wizard.

Right but that's the point- if you want to be moderately good at healing AND moderately good at DPS, you should be worse at healing than the focused healer and worse at damage than the focused DPS.

...and also worse than fighters at melee, I guess, since druids want to also be good at polymorphing and just swing melee attacks as well.

What you are asking for is not good game design in my mind. Druid's are similar to Paladins who bring guard and Bard's that bring bard song... what does the Druid bring? Druid's like every other class should have some purpose and be good at it. It could be healing if there was enough damage that a Cleric+Paladin or Cleric+Bard couldn't handle it, but that is not the game at its current form.

Every year what we seem to end the token design threads on is that Druid's shouldn't be good because they would be too close to my class... that just seems hollow. I for one hope that polymorph can become its own thing and we can stop having these arguments, but I am not sure there is enough token space to make it happen.

OrionW wrote:

ini wrote:

OrionW wrote:
Druid has fallen so ridiculously short from Cleric and Wizards at epic play it is kind of insulting to see people post this. Part of it is Iktomi’s, but the other part is the lack of support for the polymorph build.

I'd love to see Druid get better polymorph support so that its their thing. It makes sense, its super cool, and its the thing that interests me most in Druid. Elf wizard can lose it and get something else that makes them unique, since it's pretty sad on them and doesn't really fit anyways. That's somewhat tangential though.

I hope so too, but unfortunately Pouch of Tulz + Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll)+Amulet of Wild (2023) is better than Iktomi's. Being left of the Bead of Guided Strike also will continue to really hurt the polymorph build until they can get guided strike on something other than the bracers. Hopefully the redesigned class cards start to clean this all up, but right now the polymorph build is better than a melee Bard build and the Paladin; it is going to take a lot.

Please back that up with a build link.