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TOPIC: FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!)

FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #37

ini wrote:

OrionW wrote:
Druid's were left off of the Bead of Guided Strike because they might use it last year (even though they have expanded crit printed on the class card). It happens every year that someone is left off of a token. WIth that said it would make sense to have a wizard UR torso soon - with class cards coming soon though it might be better to have one that works with the new cards.


Fair point, though a lot of classes were left off of the Bead. That feels like a considered design choice: a slot swap of a popular ability, given to an intentionally small subset of the martial classes. Even more nuanced, it's the martial classes that usually get a boatload of feats and feature flexibility in their kit.

The robe doesn't feel that way, since it's a super generic effect that can slot into every spellcasting class and isn't a slot swap or anything weird. It's straight up a slightly reduced-scope focus attribute, and fits all casters equally well. I don't even particularly care about *this* particular robe. I just don't think that "wizards shouldn't have UR robes because they don't have a tradeoff" is good design. All classes lose something if they just don't equip something in that slot.

If there are new cards, that would make sense to have one at the same time. I imagine all the classes will have reworks though, so a number of classes are going to want tokens like that. :) Even if there is going to be a new one printed next year, it seems good to have choices in the slot.

There have been lots of Wizard tokens that I'd have loved for the Druid to be on. Ring of Expertise and MEC come to mind. I advocated for both of them to include Druid at the time.

I mean, these are barely comparable, so I don't quite know where to start. I'll try to humor it though.
Ring of Expertise would have made sense since Crown of Expertise was available to everyone. However, Ring of Quick Blessings was clearly printed to be a parallel effect in the same year. This was a measured design choice that gave divine casters fast spells and arcane casters more spells. If you wanted to open both tokens up to both types of casters, make them generic, and only allow one to be equipped, I could follow that logic at least. Then it would be a trade off of "fast vs more" and that's cool.

MEC was made to be a core part of the wizard class and to give it an identity and feels kind of like a bad faith argument. A few sample comparable arguments: "Why can't Fighters use Iktomi's?", "Why can't Barbarian use Raphiel's", and "Why can't Clerics use Widseth's"


I'd have greatly preferred for Druid to be on Ring of Expertise than Quick Blessing. Regarding MEC, it became a big part of the Wizard's identity, but when it was first designed it could easily have included Druid on it, they both have damage spells. It isn't remotely comparable to Iktomi's, since that is part of a cycle where each class got a separate Class Legendary. MEC was not part of a Class Legendary cycle when first introduced. I could use the same argument for it that you've used for the current Robe. I probably did at the time. ;)
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #38

I know that it's tradition for druids to try to force their way onto as many tokens as possible while simultaneously trying to get wizards booted off of them, but you can still still rest assured that you will be getting more URs than wizards this round even if they get added onto the robes, since you are currently up by two. :P
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #39

Azzy wrote: I know that it's tradition for druids to try to force their way onto as many tokens as possible while simultaneously trying to get wizards booted off of them, but you can still still rest assured that you will be getting more URs than wizards this round even if they get added onto the robes, since you are currently up by two. :P


When you put it that way in the spirit of harmony Wizards should be on the robe.
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #40

Jeff wrote in a previous thread:

I have removed Wizards from the Robes. I am sorry Wizards but I will keep this as I originally intended as a cool thing to give healers who are willing to give up Armor.


but in its current design, I agree 100% with ini: it's a generic reduced-scope focus effect that fits all casters equally well, and if that's way too strong then it's worth asking whether it should be +4 in that slot period.

My two cents:

If the intent is specifically to help healers, it would make far more sense to me that the robe boost healing *only*, not spell damage or polymorph damage (especially poly which is not constrained by spell levels).

If it's also going to boost damage for Druids, Bards, and Clerics, I think it would make more sense at +3 (or even something asymmetric like +3 heal but +2 damage) and go ahead and include Wizards.

FWIW I say this as someone who plays both Cleric and Druid more often than Wizard. For my Druid build especially, the current +4 robe is so much better than e.g. Death Knight Mail that it's hard for me to understand people being concerned that it's also better than Moonhide Robe.
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #41

If the robe is intended to boost damage and not just healing, please let it also apply to Turn Undead
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #42

Azzy wrote: I know that it's tradition for druids to try to force their way onto as many tokens as possible while simultaneously trying to get wizards booted off of them, but you can still still rest assured that you will be getting more URs than wizards this round even if they get added onto the robes, since you are currently up by two. :P


It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #43

Mike Steele wrote:

Azzy wrote: I know that it's tradition for druids to try to force their way onto as many tokens as possible while simultaneously trying to get wizards booted off of them, but you can still still rest assured that you will be getting more URs than wizards this round even if they get added onto the robes, since you are currently up by two. :P


It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.


Actually that's exactly why Druids SHOULDN'T be on all of those tokens. The flexibility to do everything should come with the cost of not being as those that specialize in one area. And "not as good" doesn't mean potentially 95% as good on all fronts, it probably means potentially 80% as good. Or in other words, not on all the tokens.
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #44

David Zych wrote: Jeff wrote in a previous thread:

I have removed Wizards from the Robes. I am sorry Wizards but I will keep this as I originally intended as a cool thing to give healers who are willing to give up Armor.


but in its current design, I agree 100% with ini: it's a generic reduced-scope focus effect that fits all casters equally well, and if that's way too strong then it's worth asking whether it should be +4 in that slot period.

My two cents:

If the intent is specifically to help healers, it would make far more sense to me that the robe boost healing *only*, not spell damage or polymorph damage (especially poly which is not constrained by spell levels).

If it's also going to boost damage for Druids, Bards, and Clerics, I think it would make more sense at +3 (or even something asymmetric like +3 heal but +2 damage) and go ahead and include Wizards.

FWIW I say this as someone who plays both Cleric and Druid more often than Wizard. For my Druid build especially, the current +4 robe is so much better than e.g. Death Knight Mail that it's hard for me to understand people being concerned that it's also better than Moonhide Robe.

They give up armor from the torso slot, but look at that boots slot, who’s giving up armor with those boots?
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #45

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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #46

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Azzy wrote: I know that it's tradition for druids to try to force their way onto as many tokens as possible while simultaneously trying to get wizards booted off of them, but you can still still rest assured that you will be getting more URs than wizards this round even if they get added onto the robes, since you are currently up by two. :P


It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.


Actually that's exactly why Druids SHOULDN'T be on all of those tokens. The flexibility to do everything should come with the cost of not being as those that specialize in one area. And "not as good" doesn't mean potentially 95% as good on all fronts, it probably means potentially 80% as good. Or in other words, not on all the tokens.


Even if Druids are on the tokens, having half of the damage spells means they're only 50% as good at damage spells. Plus, the Wizard Legendary token gives Wizards a huge edge in damage spells the Druid will never make up. :)

Edit: Just to clarify, I do agree that Wizards should be the best at dealing damage via spells. And, I think they clearly are, especially incorporating their Class Legendary and especially when dealing damage to multiple targets.
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #47

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme. :P
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FINAL IMAGES (Common through Transmuted!) 9 months 3 weeks ago #48

Azzy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It's actually logical if Druids are on more tokens than Wizards, because half of Druid spells are damage spells and half are healing. When Clerics are on healing tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells, and when Wizards are on damage tokens they cover nearly 100% of their spells. Druids have to get on both healing and damage tokens to get that same nearly 100% coverage. Just as you think it's logical for Wizards to be on this robe because it affects their damage spells, Druids think they should be on tokens that affect damage spells because it affects their damage spells.

You have a good thought there- if clerics are the healers, wizards are the damage dealers and druids are the hybrid, I guess it stands to reason clerics should be on all the healing tokens, wizards should be on all the damage tokens and druids should be on about half of each. I guess we should probably go back through and drop druids off a few more tokens to keep with their hybrid theme. :P


I vote we strike this entire conversation. :silly:
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