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TOPIC: Changes to the Havoc Rings

Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #25

  • NightGod
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I believe the comment about +11 mean "from the finger slots" by combining the +5 from the old Legendary ring and the +6 from this one.

Of course, double-sliding melee get +12 from just this new ring, but that doesn't seem to be an issue for some reason.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #26

NightGod wrote: I believe the comment about +11 mean "from the finger slots" by combining the +5 from the old Legendary ring and the +6 from this one.

Of course, double-sliding melee get +12 from just this new ring, but that doesn't seem to be an issue for some reason.

Currently Melee would get

+6 Legendary
+3 Eel
+2 Drake

+10

Monk/Ranger +20 per turn just from the finger slots.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #27

Well...it would seem I was given bad information. My apologies...I am so busy trying to get this token order done, that I did not post the proposed changes here. I should have.

So...I have now changed the Relic and Legendary to include Ranged attacks.

Gotta love this process!
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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #28

Cassie wrote:

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: We have a lot of + damage to Ranged items this year which also improve Spell damage. To keep things from getting too out of hand, I have altered the Relic and Legendary items so that the "Ranged" is changed to "Missile". The "Ranged" is still on the Ultra Rare Ring of Havoc, though.

Without this change, 1st level spells could be getting a +11 points of damage boost...which is problematic.

Thank you for your understanding. Spellcasters will have to make due with the possible +7 damage per spell.


Great call, Jeff! Even a possible +7 damage in just one year seems maybe problematic, but it's better than +11. :)


Why do you think it’s problematic? Their are more melee classes and 2 of them double slide. But they gained and no one sees an issue


Melee also gained +16 to damage vs spellcasters potential +11, reduced to potential +7


+1

I don't get why giving wizards something nice is always viewed as the problem without mentioning the gains everyone else gets. I guess I don't play melee classes very often. Is there any ring today that comes close to giving melee fighters +6 damage? It seems like they are getting a significant upgrade over the +2 and +3 choices they had that I'm aware of. The ring slot for wizards was already crowded. Yes, at legendary it would be an upgrade, but even at relic it would only seem like a small upgrade.


Relsa's ring is 8+ years old now i think and is +5


And +5 for healing spells. More versatile if one plays cleric or dr uid.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #29

I don’t play Wizard often. I know it’s a poor comparison but... if I throw a full Eldritch set on a new Wizard, They get +10 Damage from that alone and only takes 3 slots to achieve. One of which can be expanded only once limiting choices available for other desirable damage modifiers. Even if the legend allows a new player to achieve that in 2 or 3 there tokens, it’s all they are getting, unlike with the Eldritch set. How is a +10 -+30 from borrowed tokens’ bonus, less problematic than having earned and/or found enough to achieve it.

It makes no sense that a relic and legend would affect less without also increasing (by at least 1/3 for their level) the remaining abilities or bonuses. Do we want to add more damage or another ability to the rings to compensate for the loss of spell damage bonus? Isn’t the complaint that it has just enough or too much damage as is?

My Damage bonus is like 24-27 depending on my build right now. is that problematic? I have to play at the lowest levels the group will allow if I do a PUG on normal, I’m OP, should I then be expected to carry level appropriate tokens for every class for every run? It’s possible... but my back. So then, I keep my OP tokens, should I be capped for each level so as not to our power a new player in my group? Do we ban certain tokens at certain levels so that players don’t OP everything?

I don’t like the line of discussions this opens up. Let the spellcaster’s have their Super Rare chance of getting +11 damage because they were lucky enough to find a ring for treasure
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Last edit: by Dougout.

Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #30

Jeff Martin wrote: Well...it would seem I was given bad information.


This. This is the problem. Stop letting people influence things behind the scenes.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #31

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #32

Miathan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: We have a lot of + damage to Ranged items this year which also improve Spell damage. To keep things from getting too out of hand, I have altered the Relic and Legendary items so that the "Ranged" is changed to "Missile". The "Ranged" is still on the Ultra Rare Ring of Havoc, though.

Without this change, 1st level spells could be getting a +11 points of damage boost...which is problematic.

Thank you for your understanding. Spellcasters will have to make due with the possible +7 damage per spell.


Great call, Jeff! Even a possible +7 damage in just one year seems maybe problematic, but it's better than +11. :)


Why do you think it’s problematic? Their are more melee classes and 2 of them double slide. But they gained and no one sees an issue


I absolutely think the two double-sliding classes are a huge problem - they're really the root of the problems I think. I think one of the desires to keep increasing Wizard Damage is to stay ahead of those classes, which is almost impossible since they get double the amount of every melee damage increase.

I think TD should immediately change those two classes so that the damage bonuses only apply to one melee hit per round. If that happened, it would reduce the arms race among the other classes to keep up or surpass them in damage amount.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #33

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: First, I'll make the ring whatever it does. So I may not be the best to comment on this, but when has that ever stopped anyone on the internet?

Whether it is or isn't, this *feels like* an 11th hour change that came from some private feedback outside the main development process. Given that we know this has happened in the past, I sincerely hope it isn't happening again.

Given that a stated goal was to produce tokens that would drive token sales, this definitely feels counter to that stated goal at least.

If a change must be made, maybe just change the legendary? I would recommend changing neither personally, though I don't know what the rationale for this change is exactly, so I can't completely comment.

Perhaps an alternative would be to adjust some of the other tokens that boost range, leaving these as is?


That was my thought also - is this a change driven by someone that avoided the token development process and only submitted their comments after the "Final Final Final" round was finished?

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #34

Jeff, this is (at least) the third year in a row where changes were made after the supposedly final set of images were presented. While I do respect your process -- it's hard to please everyone, after all -- it is incredibly frustrating that designs are changed based on feedback the rest of the community cannot validate or debate, at a time when there is no further time for us to debate said changes.
Cleric main / Druid secondary

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #35

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: Jeff, this is (at least) the third year in a row where changes were made after the supposedly final set of images were presented. While I do respect your process -- it's hard to please everyone, after all -- it is incredibly frustrating that designs are changed based on feedback the rest of the community cannot validate or debate, at a time when there is no further time for us to debate said changes.


100% THIS. If people are allowed to submit their feedback in private and give no room for discussion, you might as well not do ANY public token dev because it makes anything we help you settle on meaningless when it is overridden by private comments. Its how we end up in situations like this.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 5 months ago #36

Jeff, I certainly don't envy you in this process. You're never going to please everyone and I trust your motives are well intentioned. I had thought this process done. Guess that wasn't entirely correct.

Anyway, one last thought. Is wizard damage broken today? Today I'm getting +4 damage from the Ring of Wonder. I assume that effect only lasts through 2021 and something completely different will replace it in 2022. The new legendary ring is only a +2 gain over the Ring of Wonder. If you don't feel things are broken today, then I doubt another +2 is going to throw things out of whack. Just a thought.

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