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Raven wrote: Thought #2: Braced of Guided Strike is not a Class-defining token. It is a way to prevent the game from nullifying a Class Defining Ability.

Say it again louder for the people in back.

Azzy wrote:

Raven wrote: Thought #2: Braced of Guided Strike is not a Class-defining token. It is a way to prevent the game from nullifying a Class Defining Ability.

Say it again louder for the people in back.

If all it did was allow sneak attack, I suspect everyone would be fine with it being a bead. Even if it just allowed Rogues (and maybe Dwarves) to ignore crit immunities, it probably would be ok.

But it also allows Monks and Rangers to ignore all crit immunities with their double hits. And moving it to the Bead slot means that those classes don't have to worry about the trade-offs that they faced in the Bracers version.

Simon wrote: The problem Rogues are having is that Guided Strike locks them out of pursuing the Legendary Bracers. Even if the Bead slot were still a single slot, Bead of Guided Strike would probably lock that slot out too, for Rogue Build, to allow that wrist access.

It’s not locked! It is legitimately a valid choice to risk not critting and not SA for 2+ charms.

Moving guided strike to bead means uncontested slot access, and not just for rogues. Do Monk / Ranger / Barbarian really need guided strike in a slot with multiple spaces and minimal competition? No, not at all.

Picc wrote:

Raven wrote: Okay, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking on the Bead of Guided Strike but I’m typing on my phone during a work break, so pls forgive poor grammar or spelling....

Thought #1: This bead is awesome and everyone will want it, Rogues & non-rogues alike. It will drive sales. It will *not* lead to treasure depreciation the same way a sales-driving Treasure enhancer might, nor will it break the game. If this Bead is the replacement for previous Everyone-Will-Want-This offerings, then it’s honestly in a very good place right now.

Thought #2: Braced of Guided Strike is not a Class-defining token. It is a way to prevent the game from nullifying a Class Defining Ability. Rogues wouldn’t equip it at all if it wasn’t for the surge in recent years of monsters which are crit/SA immune. It sucks that we need to set aside a valuable slot in order to use our basic abilities in combats which would otherwise mix them, but I’m glad we’ve at least been given that option instead of being stuck unable to use our SA on 1/3 of the monsters in a dungeon.

Thought #3: We don’t really know yet what the Bead slot will turn into. What if it is used to swap in all kinds of tokens which prevent “dungeon nerfs” .... like, a Bead of Guided Spells (always bypass spell resistance) or a Bead of Shiwlding (Immune to Retribuition damage!) or a Bead of True Sight (take that Mr Tavernkeeper!) and we can decide from year to year which beads we want to equip based on which things we feel we’re most likely to encounter in the dungeon. None of those abilities add to stats or make one class stronger than another.. they just change how the dungeon is going to screw with us.

#4... I’ll admit it. I really want that bead to make it to print. It’s overpowered compared to the Bracers... but what if we had it wrong, and the bracers were over-demanding of our builds all along?

I normally agree with you but I suspect your off base here. IMO sure a demonstrably OP token will sell but warping the game at its highest gear levels is equally unhealthy for the long term viability of the game. Not to be hyperbolic, one token wont break the world, but this one sure wont help. And what if we weren't wrong and the bracers were strong already?

Let me ask it this way, would anyone rogue or dwarf fighter with their x3 crit ever consider bracers of guided strike over bead of guided strike in a x3 bead world?

Maybe. I don't use slot expanders, so it depends on what else is/becomes available for those slots. Let's have a look...
Currently, 2 beads are lucky traveler and +3 CON. The third would probably be one of the +4 save (will or fort). VS bracers of fast fitness or +2 damage bracers.

So, short story, I will keep both and switch between them depending on what else is available. And honestly, bead is shaping up to be a very powerful slot. I'm expecting to use the guided strike bead for a couple years, until it gets pushed out. Then bracers of guided strike until the slot expander has been out of print for a while and a new super powerful bracer item is created that beats out the third best bead.

With the googles going into the set I think it would be better to have the gloves do only damage so that you have one damage , one hit and one hybrid. Honestly I would rather see the googles goto damage and the gloves stay at hit because we already have sniper spectacles in the eyes and greater archery in the gloves. That or make all three some form of hybrid of hit and damage

Crazy thought... since Guided Strike unlocks Sneak Attack to work on everything, how about also letting it unlock Turn Undead to work on everything?

Fiddy wrote: Crazy thought... since Guided Strike unlocks Sneak Attack to work on everything, how about also letting it unlock Turn Undead to work on everything?

Don’t forget searing light

Fiddy wrote: Crazy thought... since Guided Strike unlocks Sneak Attack to work on everything, how about also letting it unlock Turn Undead to work on everything?

I would love to see a bead or holy symbol that lets clerics do something all the time with their turn undead ability. I'd love for people to check out how they have it in D&D with the whole "channel divinity" thing- life clerics get the ability to do a burst of healing with their channel divinity if they don't feel like turning undead.

Lots of charms and Iouns in the participation token set. With the bead expansion, perhaps move charm of the deep(er) ones to bead?

We are also missing a +4 ref save bead. Perhaps move the charm of the sea Lion / Kraken to ref save bead? By moving the Str charm out, it will make the new Vol charms more desirable, and it covers the missing bead reflex save.

Sneak Attack (only)

Once per combat, can get +20 damage (5th lvl) by spending a round not attacking and only if monster can be sneaked.

Eight UR+ tokens address the limitations of this ability; I care about these because having a class expect to run less than URs when others don't (HoI, CoE no longer) is weird. Only the class transmute path tokens allow a second SA in a combat. Three of these allow for not taking a round off from attacking, with two of the three being the relic and legendary.

The SA problems have certainly been massively affected by relatively recent class transmutes. Let's say someone doesn't have one. So, could use Boots to SA on firsr round *or* could use Shoes to SA twice, not that that makes sense without one of the tokens below UR that allows for ignoring one round delay.

I built a rogue build for a friend prior to getting the legendary. After I sent the link to the build, it occurred to me that I put zero SA related tokens into the build and sent a message saying "just ignore SA as it will be awful". I'm sure that's the advice someone would want to hear about playing a class - just ignore your primary class ability because it's not good enough to bother at this level of play.

Is it thematic that not everything can be sneaked? Sure. Does it seem interesting to have tokens that allow sneaking monster types that can't be? Maybe. Would not want to see monsters that can't be meleed or can't be missiled or can't be spelled, though those are broader categories than SA. Hard to create a similar analogy, well, besides immune to crits ...

Crits

How often does this come up? It varies. I can understand how tiresome it is when it comes up a lot. After all, isn't the point of crits existing at all in the first place that it gives dramatic experiences? Now, one 5th level class has a crit ability and critting is getting far, far more common with all of the casual 19-20 and the increase in ranges beyond 19.

For 4abc, I didn't think it important to run BoGS. One combat affected, not room 7. Gave it a feature. In 3ab, I ran Charm of Final Repose on multiple builds. I enjoyed doing that. I would not have enjoyed something like that if it was multiple plant fights or multiple ooze fights as it wasn't as easily solved and those types lack the same flavor as undead, anyway, as I also focused on Turn Undead in a run of 3b.

Anyway, that was rambly. But, I'm fine with like one, non-room7 combat in a dungeon requiring effort for SA or critting, philosophically. I find it interesting to meta to one monster type if it's easy (lower importance slot) in a given year, so the all construct year or whatever with like an IS that smashes constructs. But, as a general hose, the thematics are getting in the way of the mechanics.

Or, just make rogue and (both) fighters way better off the card, like improve their saves, give them more/other abilities. Not like can't fit six or so abilities on a (monk) card. Then, rogue and DF have only one of several useful things hosed, though it still seems weird to hose SA on thematic grounds.

It's almost like having monsters with built in coin flip as to whether a spell will affect them or not ...

Endgame wrote: Lots of charms and Iouns in the participation token set. With the bead expansion, perhaps move charm of the deep(er) ones to bead?

We are also missing a +4 ref save bead. Perhaps move the charm of the sea Lion / Kraken to ref save bead? By moving the Str charm out, it will make the new Vol charms more desirable, and it covers the missing bead reflex save.

I do think it would be a good idea to move some of the participation tokens to bead this year as they should be immediately useful to new players upon completion of a run

Raven wrote: Okay, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking on the Bead of Guided Strike but I’m typing on my phone during a work break, so pls forgive poor grammar or spelling....

Thought #1: This bead is awesome and everyone will want it, Rogues & non-rogues alike. It will drive sales. It will *not* lead to treasure depreciation the same way a sales-driving Treasure enhancer might, nor will it break the game. If this Bead is the replacement for previous Everyone-Will-Want-This offerings, then it’s honestly in a very good place right now.

Thought #2: Braced of Guided Strike is not a Class-defining token. It is a way to prevent the game from nullifying a Class Defining Ability. Rogues wouldn’t equip it at all if it wasn’t for the surge in recent years of monsters which are crit/SA immune. It sucks that we need to set aside a valuable slot in order to use our basic abilities in combats which would otherwise mix them, but I’m glad we’ve at least been given that option instead of being stuck unable to use our SA on 1/3 of the monsters in a dungeon.

Thought #3: We don’t really know yet what the Bead slot will turn into. What if it is used to swap in all kinds of tokens which prevent “dungeon nerfs” .... like, a Bead of Guided Spells (always bypass spell resistance) or a Bead of Shiwlding (Immune to Retribuition damage!) or a Bead of True Sight (take that Mr Tavernkeeper!) and we can decide from year to year which beads we want to equip based on which things we feel we’re most likely to encounter in the dungeon. None of those abilities add to stats or make one class stronger than another.. they just change how the dungeon is going to screw with us.

#4... I’ll admit it. I really want that bead to make it to print. It’s overpowered compared to the Bracers... but what if we had it wrong, and the bracers were over-demanding of our builds all along?

Agreed. Although I think the answer is Rogues shouldn't need a token to do their class defining ability and we should remove the need for both the one round delay and make Rogues by default able to crit/sneak anything outside of the most exceptional circumstances.