TOPIC: 2022 Transmuted Kind of

Ian Lee wrote: There's greater interest here for Earcuff of Orbits. Rather do earcuffs first, then do charms following. Then, can use the Luna name in 2022 and have it make more sense, as a side benefit.

There is not more interest from this player in more iouns than charms.

You can get to max Ioun via any two of Earcuff of Orbits, Arcane Bracers, and Orion’s Belt.

The ONLY way to get to max charms is to give up your neck, wrists, and one ear - which locks you out of a class based relic or legendary.


The bracers I am super excited about - I’m not sure if bother with transmutes ear slot more ioun

I am not against the turkey leg because I think it’s going to be a more limited token as fare as availability.

For fun wild animals priority attack person with a turkey leg, on a DM crit Turkey leg is destroyed for rest of game. If you hit a animal in the mouth turkey leg destroyed for rest of game.

Dave wrote: Since others are expressing their opinions, I just want to voice my strong preference to keep the Charm Bracelet transmute. I'm still missing my Charm Necklace and without it I currently have no path to max out charm slots. You can still max out IS slots with any 2 of the current slot expanders. Without this transmute, most classes that have their class legendary in the neck slot have no ability to use all of the available charm slots. Without the ability to use more slots new charms would have to be increasingly powerful or they won't be used or desired.

+1 - I think this may be a casters / melee thing. Caster often want Charm of Spell Swapping and charm of glory which puts a lot more pressure on charms for casters than does melee.

Ian Lee wrote: Yeah, I'm not seeing why it should be easy to max out charm slots.

The slot max was only necessary because the game keeps adding more slot expanders. There's always the option for the game to stop doing that, then doesn't need to come up with arbitrary slot expansion maximums. Or, we can just start coming up with more slot expansion maximums, like no more than five fingers tokens and have people want to get to those caps as quickly as possible.

Is it easy though?

Even with Lunas to get to max charms you give up one of

Wrists and neck
Wrists, ear, waist

Is giving up 2 slots including neck, or 3 slots including waist, and having a legendary and either a ur or a ur and a relic easy?

Not to mention that any such path makes: cabal set, bracers of unguided strike, +5 damage with two handers impossible.

If we want to keep the magic alive for a dorky, fun turkey let transmute, maybe:

Relic
Greasy Turkey Leg of Doom:
-1 to hit

Same damage wheel as skull of doom, except there is a “whoopsie” icon, if you score a whoopsie you accidentally feed the monster your weapon and heal it 20 hp (lose the weapon for the rest of the room).

Deals damage as dark rift.

Same dire warnings as skull of doom about weird interactions with evil creatures.

Charm of the Firenewt: why did it change from Ranged to Melee? Was that intentional?

Bead of the Bear: there's already a token named Bead of the Bear . There's also already a +3 CON (one higher than proposed) bead, Master Ale Drinker’s Bead , that's still in print.

Potion of Ample Plenty: hoping this won't age poorly (i.e., this ongoing pandemic doesn't get worse). A time-limited token that encourages travel would be very awkward if tighter restrictions are required, but I'm assuming TD will adapt and allow these to be mailed in should that happen.

+4 Turkey Leg of Returning: strictly better than +3 Throwing Hammer of Smiting -- higher to-hit, better damage wheel, no DEX requirement, gains returning, better Assassination tool. It feels so wrong that a Cleric would rather wield a piece of dead bird than the precursor to a god's hammer (and, given the lack of DEX requirement, I'd rather the dead bird than the god's hammer). Also, should be "may be thrown", and the name should probably continue to include Smiting, considering that Thor's does.

Greater Charm Bracelets: missing the year marker and five-star relic indicator

Endgame wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Endgame wrote:

David Zych wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Honestly I kind of don't want legendary/relic slot expanders at all, either. I get that it's an auto-buy, but...yeah....not a direction I am thrilled about.

On the whole I think I agree it would be better not to have legendary slot expanders at all.

If we must have one, though, I'll propose this idea once more:

reinstate Earcuff of Orbits
relic earcuff: +2 IS, +1 Charm
Luna's Earcuff: +2 IS, +2 Charm, may not equip relic

This avoids hitting the IS cap in a single token next year, and avoids permanently slot-locking wrists this year, both of which promote more build diversity than the current design.

This seems like a good plan if there must be a slot expander legendary.

I like the TD's current plan of having separate expanders for IS and Charm. A +2 / +2 in the ear slot outclasses Orion's so badly. Orion's is diminishing in value, but at least it to-date is the only token that expands both.

By making legendary orbits 2 IS and 2 Charms, you need 2 tokens to reach max IS. If you do a 4 IS orbits, then you can max IS with a single token.

The first solution (2 Charms and 2 IS) is preferable as it allows other slot expanders like Orion’s or Arcane Bracelets to retain more of their value. Furthermore, it’s likely to generate more sales as orbits has been out of print longer, and thus reached a smaller “Install base” than the later charm bracelets.

This seems like a great solution to the concerns being expressed. A legendary earcuff which grants +2 Charm slots and +2 Ioun slots will avoid obsoleting Orion's, let Earcuff of Orbits reprinted for those who want it and also provide a way of adding more Charm slots this year for those who need it.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: Yeah, I'm not seeing why it should be easy to max out charm slots.

The slot max was only necessary because the game keeps adding more slot expanders. There's always the option for the game to stop doing that, then doesn't need to come up with arbitrary slot expansion maximums. Or, we can just start coming up with more slot expansion maximums, like no more than five fingers tokens and have people want to get to those caps as quickly as possible.

Is it easy though?

Even with Lunas to get to max charms you give up one of

Wrists and neck
Wrists, ear, waist

Is giving up 2 slots including neck, or 3 slots including waist, and having a legendary and either a ur or a ur and a relic easy?

Not to mention that any such path makes: cabal set, bracers of unguided strike, +5 damage with two handers impossible.

Keep reading in things I'm not saying.

The maxes are arbitrary. They didn't need to exist, they could easily be changed, they only apply to two slots because ... arbitrary. Fingers is essentially 3 max, but that isn't set in sand and I'd expect someday for people to be running around with four or five rings.

Just because there's a 10 charm max doesn't mean it should be easy to achieve. That it's easier to achieve nine IS max is not relevant to that. Yet, because other slots are already at a perceived max (until something increases the max) and IS isn't terribly difficult to get to its defined max, want it to be just as easy to get to charm max. Let's say feet max was 12. People would immediately be looking for feet expanders to get to 12, even though it's just an arbitrary number.

As for "here" in my other post you responded to, I didn't mean on the forums. I meant in my group, here.

Ian Lee wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: Yeah, I'm not seeing why it should be easy to max out charm slots.

The slot max was only necessary because the game keeps adding more slot expanders. There's always the option for the game to stop doing that, then doesn't need to come up with arbitrary slot expansion maximums. Or, we can just start coming up with more slot expansion maximums, like no more than five fingers tokens and have people want to get to those caps as quickly as possible.

Is it easy though?

Even with Lunas to get to max charms you give up one of

Wrists and neck
Wrists, ear, waist

Is giving up 2 slots including neck, or 3 slots including waist, and having a legendary and either a ur or a ur and a relic easy?

Not to mention that any such path makes: cabal set, bracers of unguided strike, +5 damage with two handers impossible.

Keep reading in things I'm not saying.

The maxes are arbitrary. They didn't need to exist, they could easily be changed, they only apply to two slots because ... arbitrary. Fingers is essentially 3 max, but that isn't set in sand and I'd expect someday for people to be running around with four or five rings.

Just because there's a 10 charm max doesn't mean it should be easy to achieve. That it's easier to achieve nine IS max is not relevant to that. Yet, because other slots are already at a perceived max (until something increases the max) and IS isn't terribly difficult to get to its defined max, want it to be just as easy to get to charm max. Let's say feet max was 12. People would immediately be looking for feet expanders to get to 12, even though it's just an arbitrary number.

As for "here" in my other post you responded to, I didn't mean on the forums. I meant in my group, here.

YOu said you are “not seeing why it should be easy to max out charm slots.”

I don’t think the measures one must go to to qualify for max charms are “easy” in any sense.

I now better understand your use of here in the other post. Had I understood that I wouldn’t have quoted you on that one - sorry about that.

Endgame wrote:

Dave wrote: Since others are expressing their opinions, I just want to voice my strong preference to keep the Charm Bracelet transmute. I'm still missing my Charm Necklace and without it I currently have no path to max out charm slots. You can still max out IS slots with any 2 of the current slot expanders. Without this transmute, most classes that have their class legendary in the neck slot have no ability to use all of the available charm slots. Without the ability to use more slots new charms would have to be increasingly powerful or they won't be used or desired.

I think this is OK that it’s difficult to hit the charm Cap. It will force players to make decisions in the charm slot, and if you’re really really wanting to max out Charm, it can still be done but at a high cost.

I'm already making touch decisions in the charm slot having to dump Questors and either Draco-lich or Brooching. Every new charm has to be better than those, or there's no reason to get it. My point is that it's much easier to hit the cap on IS than it is on Charm. Adding another IS expander doesn't really do anything for me. in other words, I guess there'd be one less relic/legendary I need to acquire. But I know everyone's situation is different. I'm just expressing my opinion so it doesn't seem like all opinions are the same.

Dave wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Dave wrote: Since others are expressing their opinions, I just want to voice my strong preference to keep the Charm Bracelet transmute. I'm still missing my Charm Necklace and without it I currently have no path to max out charm slots. You can still max out IS slots with any 2 of the current slot expanders. Without this transmute, most classes that have their class legendary in the neck slot have no ability to use all of the available charm slots. Without the ability to use more slots new charms would have to be increasingly powerful or they won't be used or desired.

I think this is OK that it’s difficult to hit the charm Cap. It will force players to make decisions in the charm slot, and if you’re really really wanting to max out Charm, it can still be done but at a high cost.

I'm already making touch decisions in the charm slot having to dump Questors and either Draco-lich or Brooching. Every new charm has to be better than those, or there's no reason to get it. My point is that it's much easier to hit the cap on IS than it is on Charm. Adding another IS expander doesn't really do anything for me. in other words, I guess there'd be one less relic/legendary I need to acquire. But I know everyone's situation is different. I'm just expressing my opinion so it doesn't seem like all opinions are the same.

We have kind of reached the point where if you've been around forever your charms are full. That leaves three options. 1) stop buying charms 2) get more charm slots 3) wait for OP charms to get printed then make a "fun" decision.

Also want to throw it out there, that for most people getting "just one legendary" anything isn't easy.

Matthew Hayward wrote: YOu said you are “not seeing why it should be easy to max out charm slots.”

I don’t think the measures one must go to to qualify for max charms are “easy” in any sense.

Not that I want to belabor this, but I don't like being misquoted. Saying that I don't think it should be easy is not in any way saying that it is easy. Two different things. Dave thinks people should be able to get to the max without giving up things like class transmutes. Endgame responded. I should have quoted him, but I didn't expect the other posts in between that lost context on where the conversation was at.

It's not easy to max out charms. If the charm legendary happens, it's still not easy. Not everyone has all tokens, even though comments often seem to assume that people do, sometimes my comments as well. Sure, would require a legendary, a relic, and an UR to not use OOP neck UR to get to 10.

But, I was not saying it was. I was saying I don't see any reason it needs to be any more than the 10 fingers max needs to be easy to reach with current tokens or with future tokens.

Put a different way, saying there's no requirement for slot expansion, but I already said that in ... the same post. Can just suffer forever obsoleting tokens in slots to make room for new more desirable tokens.

What I did say in a different post is that TD has a fundamental problem. It restricts token usage, yet wants people to want more tokens. That leads to various outcomes of different desirability to different people: create new slots, which has happend a bunch of times; create slot expanders, which has been prolific recently; add more slotless.

An area that can both sell more tokens and not keep expanding slots is to have combinations of tokens that are really good together but not with other tokens. But, there are only so many strategies in TD, with the class structure giving reasons for classes to play a certain way. Classes themselves give a reason to get a wider range of tokens, but some people don't want to play a variety of classes and some people just get everything they need for every class, so problem not solved.

If you tried to do something like make slingbow cleric really good by introducing an armor set with lots of slingbow bonuses, not only fighting against those who don't want to do something like that but the very nature of the class paradigm where cleric isn't supposed to suddenly be awesome at missile combat because that loses identity.

But, I'm getting off on a tangent even if it does get into why it gets harder and harder to add tokens. The more that exists, the more something new has to push the envelope or reinvent the model. CCGs get bloated unless they hit the reset button to where they will no longer resemble where they started. In certain ways, TD no longer resembles where it started and it's not clear where it intends to go.