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TOPIC: 2022 Rare Final Kind of

2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #37

The penalty in Ioun Stone Jade Cube now seems too punishing. I think -2 to will saves was enough. With the negatives on both stones at -2, you could offset with Iron Will items to come out even. That locks a slot for head or ring that dex users may not have otherwise locked.

As is, you’re looking at 2-3 slots to offset that penalty. Will is potentially the most damaging save due to the inability to act. -2 to Will seemed appropriate.

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2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #38

Earcuff of the Shanty

There is only one ear token that adds damage currently. I guess it's inevitable that slots will continue to keep adding more damage. The impact of +1 to spells versus +2 to melee is significant.

If the uncommon that adds more melee damage than every other instrument in the game goes through as current, can wear a rare earcuff and get +6 (+7 with 5th level bard) melee damage.

In a year that does more at higher rarities for ranged than most, +2 damage with Missile attacks would seem more appropriate, where the bard instrument wouldn't just be stacking monsterish [sic] melee bonuses with the earcuff. Note also that we have all of these guns where someone might want to wreck monsters with them rather than the usual way.

Note that there is an uncommon earcuff that causes more melee damage. Earcuff of Enchantment pierces DR by 1. A logical progression from there would be to +1 melee damage rather than the jump of less good than +1 to +2. So, if must be melee, suggest toning down to +1 melee damage.

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Last edit: by Ian Lee.

2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #39

Triton set: there's no innate way to equip three items from just standard pack tokens. I'm assuming the 2011 Triton Helm is not part of this set.

Charm of the Doppelganger: should this say "+2 to hit with Polymorph attacks", or is it intended to impact spells as well? Currently, this only matters for an Elf Wizard who equips Shirt of the Fae casting Acid Ray or Ray of Shock.

Gambler's Grenade: should be "latter", not "later", unless the gamble is not killing yourself so you can't die later. It would feel more of a gamble if you can, in fact, kill yourself with this.

Lenses of Sharpness: -2 damage or -2 to-hit? Seems too strong compared to the Amulet of Flawsight , and that's not even considering the slot. [ETA: That said, it's sounding like Flawsight was underpowered, and this is appropriate.]
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Last edit: by Ho-Yi Fung.

2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #40

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: Triton set: there's no innate way to equip three items from just standard pack tokens. I'm assuming the 2011 Triton Helm is not part of this set.

Charm of the Doppelganger: should this say "+2 to hit with Polymorph attacks", or is it intended to impact spells as well? Currently, this only matters for an Elf Wizard who equips Shirt of the Fae casting Acid Ray or Ray of Shock.

Gambler's Grenade: should be "latter", not "later", unless the gamble is not killing yourself so you can't die later. It would feel more of a gamble if you can, in fact, kill yourself with this.

Lenses of Sharpness: -2 damage or -2 to-hit? Seems too strong compared to the Amulet of Flawsight , and that's not even considering the slot.

On the triton set,

Since the trident is a thrown weapon, it could be equipped in the ranged slot, while any 1H melee weapon from the set could be equipped with the shield in melee offhand.

That said, I believe it would be better for the trident to become 1H.

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2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #41

As someone who pretty much exclusively plays Rogue, I'd like to offer some thoughts on Lenses of Sharpness.

Let me start by saying that I think this token is balanced, even as a Rare rather than an UR. Here's my reasoning.

No matter what type of Rogue build you run, the one thing Rogues always struggle with a lot is their hit bonus. Melee builds have to compensate for their very low base STR, which means that they can't just load up on DMG tokens - they need to buff STR and melee hit as high as possible just to hit enemies in the first place. Ranged Rogues fare better as Rogues have a high starting DEX, but that's specifically countered by the text on the Lenses which gives -2 to hit with Ranged Attacks (note: It should probably say "-2 to hit" on the token instead of just "-2".

So having established that as the basis for my argument, lets look at how equipping the Lenses will impact a Rogue build.

The most popular Rogue build for high-end play is the Ranged build. To start with, the Lenses give you -2 to hit with your Ranged attacks. This is a significant penalty as Ranged builds already have to divide their slots between hit bonuses and damage bonuses, but the real kicker is that the Lenses take up the Eye slot. Are you playing an Assassin's Crossbow build? Your first eye slot is locked down by Lenses of Agility, and you won't get to use Sniper Spectacles (via Cranston's Helpful Hat) in your second Eye slot if you equip this token. For the Assassin's Crossbow build, this isn't just -2 to Ranged hit, it's effectively -5 to hit due to locking out the second Eye slot. Are you playing a Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger build? You get a bit more flexibility, but are still losing either Sniper Spectacles or Lenses of the Fae to this to go with the slightly lower damage you are already dealing compared to Assassin's Crossbow.

Perhaps you're playing a melee Rogue instead. In that case, if the Lenses were to drop your melee hit any more than it already does then they would pretty much be unplayable. A Rogue's basic melee hit bonus is +0 and you basically need to hit BiS to make your hit bonus high enough for play at Nightmare+. Just by equipping the lenses you're giving up on Goggles of Instant Analysis or Lenses of Heimdall Sight, which will certainly give you pause for thought when your hit bonus is already barely reaching the level it needs to be at.

On a more general note, although the slot is different, the Lenses are demonstrably a step down in power from the UR Bracers of Guided Strike. Lenses of Sharpness is locked to a single class and offers a penalty to Ranged Attacks, compared to the UR Bracers which work for every class and have no downside.

I've written quite a long post since I can completely understand an initial reaction to this token being "What? That ability seems far too good for Rare!". Hopefully the above gives some insight on why I feel the token is fine.
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2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #42

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Lenses of Sharpness ... WOW.

I love these. but I also hate them.

As a Melee-optimized Rogue, I absolutely LOVE that these would give me an opportunity to move the Guided Strike effect off my Bracer slot, and at the Rare level!!

But -2 to Ranged attacks? OUCH. That's gonna hurt. With a melee-optimized build, I can barely hit anything with ranged attacks, at Nightmare level. I was using the Sniper Specs to give me the extra +3 to hit in order to land my attack with roughly 50% success. Now, with the option to move the Guided Strike effect to the eye slot, I'll be replacing a +3 to hit, with a -2. I really doubt I'll be landing my attacks (Sneak or otherwise) at -5 from previous.

So, doing the math... IF I equip these new lenses, I'd be trading my chances of "Hitting at all during Ranged Combat", for the chance of "Hitting extra hard during Melee against a SA/Crit Immune foe"

Whether that is a good trade off depends on how often we get the forced "Range-only Combat" vs how often we get "Crit Immune Combats" in the dungeon. And that will probably change from year to year... so I DO want these... but they're not a guaranteed lock into my build, with that penalty.

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EDIT to add: Yeah, what lross said, above. (I believe we were typing our replies at the same time : )
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Last edit: by Raven.

2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #43

Thanks all! If we want to replace the UR Guide Strike then that should take another UR to move the power to another slot. Remind me next year to explore that. Thanks.
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Last edit: by Jeff Martin.

2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #44

Raven wrote: EDIT to add: Yeah, what lross said, above. (I believe we were typing our replies at the same time : )


I'm happy to go with your post.... it's more concise and at minimum you've been playing Rogue more than three times as long as I have :laugh:
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2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #45

+1 to whatever the Rogues are saying about their tokens -- I don't play Rogue and I'm only basing my comments off of existing gear, but from their comments it sounds like Amulet of Flawsight was underpowered. Updated my post to include that
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2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #46

Beertram wrote: As written, the gambler's grenade would need lawyers to resolve since it says the target can also not go below 1 hp. The grenade can kill him, but not later this room?

How about "On a natural 15 that hits, the thrower also takes the damage but can't go below 1 hp this room."
(if it fits)


It doesn’t make you invulnerable for the room - it can’t kill you with its backfire that one round.

...the thrower also takes damage (set hp to 1 if this would kill you)

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #47

I agree with What Iross and Raven are saying...

My suggestion would be to make these lenses be the Rare-Level Activator for Ranged SA With Bows and Crossbows only, Reduced or No Dex Bonus like the Lenses of Dexterity (is there any reason to keep that a UR only ability?). Rogues have a choice of only 2 UR lenses that allow Ranged SA depending on the type of weapon equipped, and both will be out of print in 2022. Unless I'm mistaken, that's it.

There exist other Red and Green tokens that bypass Crit and SA immunities on specific types of creatures with no drawbacks. If we are given options in those covered slots for other creature types, it would be more helpful.

I feel these lenses should be an item that new players can go "Hey I need that! But I'm still looking for those URs" and High Level Players look at and say "Hey I wish I had that when I started playing, but now it's nice to have an option" With the lenses as Is, I don't believe this will be the case.
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Last edit: by Dougout.

2022 Rare Final Kind of 1 year 2 months ago #48

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Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks all! If we want to replace the UR Guide Strike then that should take another UR to move the power to another slot. Remind me next year to explore that. Thanks.


Jeff, what about the idea of turning the lenses into rare bracers. It wouldn't replace an UR but it would open the crit anything power to the rare level in a form that is still demonstrably worse then the UR bracers.
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