TOPIC: Transmute Token Ideas

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I've stated before that I feel a "not uber powerful" effect for the dragon orbs that is nerdy fun should be about on par with an Ultra Rare token.

Having it on par with a 7 year Eldritch token, one of which is the most expensive token in the game, definitely triggers in my books as Uber powerful.

Ok. And when I hear "not uber-powerful", all I hear "less than an Artifact". But I'm fairly loose on where exactly that is.

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I've stated before that I feel a "not uber powerful" effect for the dragon orbs that is nerdy fun should be about on par with an Ultra Rare token.

Having it on par with a 7 year Eldritch token, one of which is the most expensive token in the game, definitely triggers in my books as Uber powerful.

Ok. And when I hear "not uber-powerful", all I hear "less than an Artifact". But I'm fairly loose on where exactly that is.

I'd assumed at minimum not on par with other multi year tokens given it was a multi year token as well.

I don't think either of us is coming from a wrong perspective, we've just got a different idea of what Uber Powerful is

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Ok, back to Dragon Orbs... Here is an idea I don't think I've seen thrown out.

Lesser Dragon Orb - counts as an Arcanum Set piece and allows subclass access 1/year

Greater Dragon Orb - counts as an Arcanum Set piece as well as Eldritch Set piece and allows subclass access 1/year

Does not add an extra level to either Set, just allows token flexibility and an opportunity to access the Arcanum Set bonus(es) earlier and a (likely extra) use of the subclasses

4 hours and no replies for or against? This must be the most perfect design ever.

Count me as a vote against. Giving access to subclasses and counting as both Arcanum and Eldritch pieces seems uber powerful to me, essentially replacing both the Rod of Seven Parts and whatever the toughest Arcanum item is, in addition to getting a jump start on Arcanum level bonuses.

Plus, it seems to have nothing to do with Dragons, which means no geeky fun.

This just points that everyone hears something different when they see "uber-powerful". To me, uber-powerful would be more powerful than a Legendary or Grand Eldritch. This suggestion is neither in my mind.

You can't really claim this is "essentially replacing both the Rod of Seven Parts and whatever the toughest Arcanum item is" when it doesn't include the other bonuses those tokens provide. The Rod does more than just count as a piece of the set and provide access to the subclasses. It also gives at minimum +1 to all saves and +1 HP. For most cases, it is also giving you and additional +1 to Fort and Ref, +1 to AC, +1 to ranged to-hit, +1 to melee to-hit and damage, and +5 HP. That is quite a bit that my proposed token doesn't give you. I'd expect that whatever toughest Arcanum piece will be will also have fairly interesting additional bonuses besides just being part of the Arcanum set.

Sorry but I will also post against this idea.

The ability to gain set bonuses from TWO different high level sets is already a very powerful option. In addition to that giving access to sub classes, an ability only offered by two specific tokens in the game, both of which are 7 year crafting tokens definitely falls on the Uber Powerful ability feel to me.

It doesn't feel like nerdy fun in that design, it's purely power and replicating extremely high token abilities.

Ok. Let's skip specific powers for now and skip the 5-year for now. Where in the spectrum of overall power do you feel like the 8-year Dragon Orb transmute should be? Because it sounds like you are arguing that it should be weaker than the 7-year transmutes that take less support to TD to acquire.

So should they be at the level of a 4-year Eldritch Relic?
How about a single-year Relic?
Just a UR?
Exhalted?
Somewhere else?

This is a good question that could ideally prevent a lot of talking past one another.

Personally, I am hoping for something in the realm of the RoSP or slightly better due to being 8 years of 8k rewards instead of 7 years of 1k rewards. Doubly so if the standalone pieces do nothing at all.

I feel this is reasonable given the context of Jeff’s original post on the matter, where the Dragon Orbs were introduced in analogy to the RoSP segments, and indicated a desire to provide a buyer loyalty reward above and beyond a Wish Ring.

And, to head off the potential “gah that’s Uber powerful” objection; to me Uber Powerful include: artifacts, Charm of Avarice, Benrow’s Necklace of the Elder Drake, Bog’s Medallion of Berserking, Wideseths Legendary Lute, Raphiel’s Sneaky Necklace.

I understand some people would prefer a RoSP for novelty or prestige, but it is clear to me from a raw power level perspective it’s not in the same league with those kinds of tokens above - or even with more mundane situational tokens like bracers of guided strike or Ring of Spell Storing in the right build.

As much as I'd like to try to come up with a different version of Fiddy's idea of having someone dress up as a dragon and join the party, like have badge holders or special lights or whatever, those seem kind of trivial. As does being able to speak Dragonese as that should not matter most years.

A dragon slider that hits on like 13+ and has fixed damage wheel, better for full transmute, might be splashier than accessories.

Could have a random dragon effect, a la Wonder. Maybe more like Charms of Transmorph, as wouldn't want to build around the effect in same way. Especially with CoT, can tailor the benefit to each dungeon. Maybe speaking Dragonese actually does something in some dungeon.

Well, let’s see what dragon orbs do:

If successful in gaining control over it, the user of an orb of dragonkind was granted access to several spells, such as cure wounds, daylight, death ward, and scrying. The main power of the orb was to telepathically call all evil dragons in a 40-mile (64-km) radius to its position, a power that could be used once every hour.[1]

So the owner, if they pass a will save, can cast a few extra spells, and, if there is a dragon somewhere in the dungeon, it can be summoned to make an attack?

Endgame wrote: Well, let’s see what dragon orbs do:

If successful in gaining control over it, the user of an orb of dragonkind was granted access to several spells, such as cure wounds, daylight, death ward, and scrying. The main power of the orb was to telepathically call all evil dragons in a 40-mile (64-km) radius to its position, a power that could be used once every hour.[1]

So the owner, if they pass a will save, can cast a few extra spells, and, if there is a dragon somewhere in the dungeon, it can be summoned to make an attack?

Not sure what your source is... but here's the D&D 3.5 version... www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:The_Orbs_of_Dragonkind

Now... THAT sounds uber-powerful to me.

Matthew Hayward wrote: And, to head off the potential “gah that’s Uber powerful” objection to me Uber Powerful includes artifacts, Charm of Avarice, Benrow’s Necklace of the Elder Drake, Bog’s Medallion of Berserking, Wideseths Legendary Lute, Raphiel’s Sneaky Necklace.

I understand some people would prefer a RoSP for novelty or prestige, but it is clear to me from a raw power level perspective it’s not in the same league with those kinds of tokens above - or even with more mundane situational tokens like bracers of guided strike or Ring of Spell Storing in the right build.

Given a choice, where monetary value didn't matter, I would choose RoSP over having the combined collection of Benrow's and Bog's and Widseth's and Raphiel's entirely to play an alt class every year. I didn't get a RoSP for a bunch of numbers, though it has certainly been useful. I got one because it allows for a different play experience.

Just because some people don't care for alt classes doesn't mean that it lacks value. I'm really surprised that people don't rent out RoSP use (to people they trust not to lose it) to make sure that alt classes get used as much as possible every year. But, then, it didn't seem like people had even considered it as it does require knowing someone you trust outside of your circle that expresses interest in playing the alt classes.

Anyway, alt classes really isn't in theme for Orb, either, unless it was new alt classes with dragonness. That seems unlikely as it's already effort to just support alt classes that hardly ever got played in past years. If it were in theme, sure, it makes sense as geeky fun that isn't uberpowerful.

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: Well, let’s see what dragon orbs do:

If successful in gaining control over it, the user of an orb of dragonkind was granted access to several spells, such as cure wounds, daylight, death ward, and scrying. The main power of the orb was to telepathically call all evil dragons in a 40-mile (64-km) radius to its position, a power that could be used once every hour.[1]

So the owner, if they pass a will save, can cast a few extra spells, and, if there is a dragon somewhere in the dungeon, it can be summoned to make an attack?

Not sure what your source is... but here's the D&D 3.5 version... www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:The_Orbs_of_Dragonkind

Now... THAT sounds uber-powerful to me.

This was my source:

forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Orb_of_dragonkind

Ian Lee wrote: As much as I'd like to try to come up with a different version of Fiddy's idea of having someone dress up as a dragon and join the party, like have badge holders or special lights or whatever, those seem kind of trivial. As does being able to speak Dragonese as that should not matter most years.

A dragon slider that hits on like 13+ and has fixed damage wheel, better for full transmute, might be splashier than accessories.

Could have a rangom dragon effect, a la Wonder. Maybe more like Charms of Transmorph, as wouldn't want to build around the effect in same way. Especially with CoT, can tailor the benefit to each dungeon. Maybe speaking Dragonese actually does something in some dungeon.

Dude if my orb transmute got me a cool looking dragon-themed personal slider, I'd be all over that.

If that slider also had some neato abilities tied to it, that's a bonus.

Ian Lee wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: And, to head off the potential “gah that’s Uber powerful” objection to me Uber Powerful includes artifacts, Charm of Avarice, Benrow’s Necklace of the Elder Drake, Bog’s Medallion of Berserking, Wideseths Legendary Lute, Raphiel’s Sneaky Necklace.

I understand some people would prefer a RoSP for novelty or prestige, but it is clear to me from a raw power level perspective it’s not in the same league with those kinds of tokens above - or even with more mundane situational tokens like bracers of guided strike or Ring of Spell Storing in the right build.

Given a choice, where monetary value didn't matter, I would choose RoSP over having the combined collection of Benrow's and Bog's and Widseth's and Raphiel's entirely to play an alt class every year. I didn't get a RoSP for a bunch of numbers, though it has certainly been useful. I got one because it allows for a different play experience.

Just because some people don't care for alt classes doesn't mean that it lacks value. I'm really surprised that people don't rent out RoSP use (to people they trust not to lose it) to make sure that alt classes get used as much as possible every year. But, then, it didn't seem like people had even considered it as it does require knowing someone you trust outside of your circle that expresses interest in playing the alt classes.

Anyway, alt classes really isn't in theme for Orb, either, unless it was new alt classes with dragonness. That seems unlikely as it's already effort to just support alt classes that hardly ever got played in past years. If it were in theme, sure, it makes sense as geeky fun that isn't uberpowerful.

Sounds like you’re one of the people who would prefer a RoSP for novelty

Regarding renting, TPTB asked people not to rent out tokens, this came up quite a long while ago (I’m thinking 2015 or so), certainly people have tried renting out HoP when it was king of the hill.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I've stated before that I feel a "not uber powerful" effect for the dragon orbs that is nerdy fun should be about on par with an Ultra Rare token.

Having it on par with a 7 year Eldritch token, one of which is the most expensive token in the game, definitely triggers in my books as Uber powerful.

Ok. And when I hear "not uber-powerful", all I hear "less than an Artifact". But I'm fairly loose on where exactly that is.

I'd assumed at minimum not on par with other multi year tokens given it was a multi year token as well.

I don't think either of us is coming from a wrong perspective, we've just got a different idea of what Uber Powerful is

To me, the power level is defined by both "not uber powerful" and "geeky fun". To me, that sounds like a fairly low powered, but fun, effect. Probably related in some way to a Dragon or Dragon Hatchling.

It sounds to me like Jeff comes out in a dragon costume for you one per weekend and slides an extra attack or casts dragon breath.