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TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #85

With a little more time to think about these tokens, here's my current take.

MEC is mostly (not completely) nerfed. The cost to damage ratio got a lot worse. I can see using it 2-3 times at most per dungeon, but only on level 2 or level 3 spells. I just can't see squeezing 11 more pts onto a magic missile and taking a 25 pt hit (and I was in the camp of willing to take 10 pts of damage for another 6)

Yes, there are dozens and dozens of tokens that can raise hp, but as I've stated multiple times, equipping them comes with a cost somewhere else. Losing the neck slot to the legendary was already looking to cost me 10 hp from this year's build. Now it looks like the whole design has made hp as valuable a commodity as focus damage. A lot of math is going to be needed to find the right balance. I'm thinking a wizard will need to go into a nightmare or epic dungeon with at least 70-80 hp in order to maximize effectiveness. At best, focus damage will be around 30, possibly a point or two less. I'm thinking 26 and then 4 from the Bard. If you don't have a bard in your group, you'll be around 26.

Consider the new MEC. A number of people thought it was an overpowered and almost "broken" token as it was. I disagree, but everyone's entitled to their opinion. If I look at it now, if I was a new wizard starting out, what would be my target UR level tokens. Ring of Spell Storing for sure. If I could find them, the Cabal set absolutely. I'm thinking Crown of Expertise now moves ahead of MEC. Cloak of the Elm, just for the required hp is needed before considering MEC. Semi-lich Skull (if you have 5 or more teeth) is about even with MEC. With all the good ring slot items, Charm of Glory might rank higher. Charm of Spell Swapping is also now probably better. And if you don't go with the relic or legendary, then Charm Necklace would be above MEC, or Medallion of Mystic Mouth. At best, new MEC would rank 6th or 7th on the list of desirable wizard tokens, and possibly as low as 10th.

Removing the intelligence requirement is nice, but at a legendary level almost all wizards would have the starhide or sunhide robe, so that really doesn't help at all, it just slightly nerfs those tokens as well (certainly it devalues them a touch). So...does all of the above mean I'm upset over new MEC? Not that much. I plan to at least get the relic, if not legendary, so it's just an add-on ability that I'll use a couple of times a dungeon. It probably hurts people more who are just at the UR level in their builds with only a relic or two and possibly a couple of eldritch items.

One last comment about the new wizard strategy. With hp more valuable than ever, players seriously need to consider ways to conserve hp loss. That means you can't let your save totals get too low and means to mitigate taking damage get more importance. I absolutely would now take Ring of Supreme Elemental Command over Greater Ring of Focus. On average, I probably take 30-40 less hp of damage over the course of dungeon. That's a lot damage to give up for a few more points of damage per spell. That's the cost of 6-8 uses of mage or arch-mage power. So, a wizard will need to watch that area. In other words, truly glass wizards won't get very far and end up dealing a lot less damage than they think.

Onto the mage powers
Alter - Kind of nice, but don't see it getting a lot of use. I can already cast shock or fire spells as an elf wizard, so only cold will help. It would usually add something like 5 more pts of damage at a cost of taking 5 pts of damage. It looks like a nice add, but will only occasionally get used.

Fork - This is really nice. I can see using this in every room that has more than one monster. It suddenly occurs to me that maybe I shouldn't say anything nice about any of these abilities. The chances are they will then cause an outcry and get nerfed. if that happens, I will throw in the towel and just give up on this class. If I read this one right, if cast a magic missile with 30 bonus damage, I can do 41 points of damage to two monsters. That's a 41 point damage boost for a cost of 5 hp. I like this one a lot and it almost makes the relic worth it alone. Unless, of course, I'm reading it wrong.

Intensify - I guess this will be useful, but I'm sad to think spell resistance might be making a comeback in more dungeons. As an occasional wizard nerf, I'm fine with it. But if we start running into this in every dungeon, yuck. You better start adjusting damage estimates if that's the case. It will impact wizards a lot.

Quicken - I like this one so much that I'm afraid to say anything. Since its an instant action, I still get a standard action and a free action. That means I can use Ring of Spells Storing, Quicken and my standard action to cast three spells in a single round. This will likely get me up over 150 damage in one round (3 Fireballs with base 20 and 30 bonus). If this gets changed, I will be upset. Adding "cannon" back into the "glass cannon" aspect of the wizard was high on my wish list. I'll be very sad if this gets nerfed. And you're really only going to be able to do 3 Level 3 spells in one round once per dungeon.

Sharpen - This is nice. It only affects slide spells, so that's only a few times per dungeon. I really don't see wizards hitting a crit all that often and it does come with a cost to use. But if you do hit with the spell, it will seem like a big deal. I see this possibly changing the strategy of some wizards that don't like slide. It comes with a potential downside, but the upside is tempting.

In summary, I like the relic. It occupies and important neck slot, but I think it gives back enough to make it worth the transmute. MEC is just a nice add on that you can use maybe in the final room.

Arch-Mage abilities.
Absorb - Given the importance of hp, I can see this getting used. It definitely makes Charm of Spell Swapping a must have item to give you enough spells to use this once or twice.

Assure - It's situational, but could be very useful. You may have some dungeons where this will never come into play, but when its needed, it will be very nice to have.

Boost - I can definitely see using this. At nightmare level, most melee classes hit at a very high percentage. A barbarian using Fury comes to mind as one good choice. This one is nice for the whole party. I can see using this often.

Conserve - This one is very useful, especially when you consider Aborb. The two balance each other nicely.

In summary, Boost and Conserve make the legendary worth getting. Absorb and Assure are also nice.

On the whole, I'm very happy with the new wizard relic and legendary. MEC is mostly nerfed, but what you've given back is interesting and fun. I'm very much looking forward to the new wizard. As long as you don't nerf Quicken, I can be that cannon once or twice a dungeon. On the whole, I think these tokens will slightly boost average wizard damage (some loss of bonus spell damage will offset some of these gains). I think I'm getting a moderate boost in that one round per game, but at a risk of it getting nerfed by an assumed increase in monster spell resistance (so for all of those who will jump on this and calculate some massive number, back it off 25% for the chance of it equaling 0). Most of all I think this will increase my overall "fun" level of playing this class.

On the negative side, the nerfing of MEC probably hurts those most with a hardcore to marginal nightmare level build. If they can get to the relic level, they should be ok. On it's own, there are much better choices at the UR level than MEC.

Build strategies will now need to focus as much on hp as on spell damage. As I've stated before, I'll be running a lot of numbers to try and optimize that balance. Some of the mage and archmage powers are very nice, but will require hp resource if you want to use them more than a few times per dungeon. Being guarded by a paladin takes on more importance and I don't even want to think about how many consumables I would need if I don't have a good cleric and/or druid in the party. So, these are my second thoughts on the token changes. I really, really, really hope the mage and archmage powers don't change.

Last thought. There are those in the camp who simply don't like the MEC concept of using hp to boost spellcasting. Those wizards might want to consider another path, because all of the mage and archmage powers are now also based off of that same MEC concept of losing hp.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #86

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Question:

When a Monk's FoB or a Melee ranger's 2 puck attack is Boosted, do both pucks get the full Boost bonus or is it somehow allocated in a pool among the pucks?


Good question! There are a couple ways to go here. How about we just say the spell damage is cut in half (rounded down) for each slide?


Jeff, that sounds good, or just apply it to one of the pucks. It would be good to do something similar to all bonus combat damage for Monks and Rangers instead of applying it all to both pucks.


This thread is about fighting for wizards, if you want to poo poo on other classes, why aren’t you just playing other classes? Let’s stay positive friends.
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macXdmg
Monk of the Painda Order
Bard of the College of Sick Beats

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #87

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The Mage Medallion Relic provides some nice options of effects in Quicken and Sharpen, assuming the Wizard player likes sliding spells. Bringing the Crown of Elemental Expertise into the options list is nice, but could use a few more elements to allow for greater diversity.

Fork is a great design but I worry about the limitation of it being damage only. That seems to me that it could be used as a way to restrict Wizards from Forking our strongest spells to a second target by tacking on an unwanted secondary effect. I would suggest instead saying the secondary target only receives the damage of the initial target but is not affected by any secondary effect. That removes the chance of double dipping in secondary effects without removing options from the ability.

Intensify makes me very unhappy to see as a Wizard. Spell Resistance coming into effect again in combat leads to potential MASSIVE wasted HP on a spell trigger that deals no damage simply because the Wizard has no way to know spell resistance is active before casting the spell. It also still gives a 25% chance for the spell to fail, which slows down combat and potentially wastes a powerful spell and HP investiture. And only affects 1 spell cast that turn, AND is only usable 1 time per room. Having spell damage return and having the class relic only be partially effective against it, and only if you know it's coming and only 1 time per room leads to situations where I, as a Wizard, sit out an entire combat, because I did my only 1 spell that can deal damage and it's not worth casting anything I know has a large chance of failing.


At the Relic level I do not see there being much chance that I ever use the Relic necklace Mage Powers more than 1 time per combat.

Intensity is situational, Fork is situational, Alter is situational

Quicken and Sharpen I see getting used together on the same slide spell in every room. Possibly Alter if I know of an elemental resistance or vulnerability specifically related to the only 3 damage options I have on that ability.

No matter what the situation I see this as my combat with the Relic.

Round 1
Quickened, Sharpened, Mad Evokered Scorching Ray (possibly Altered) at a cost of 35HP
Standard Action Spell (Magic missile, scorching ray, etc)

Round 2-100
Mad Evokered whatever spell is strongest.

The Relic no longer gives me any bonus over just having the charm.

The Legendary has the same problem.

I would suggest instead


Relic - Choose 4 Mage Powers, you have access only to these mage powers this run

As a free action 1/round you may apply 1 or 2 of your chosen Mage Powers to a spell. You may also apply Mad Evoker's Charm effect to it as your 1/round application if desired.

Legendary - Choose 7 Mage or Arch Mage powers, you have access only to these powers this run.

As a free action 1/round you may apply 1, 2 or 3 of your chosen Mage Powers to a spell. You may also apply Mad Evoker's Charm effect to it as your 1/round application if desired.




This gives the Wizard the ability to choose powers to match their playstyle and allows the necklace to provide a turn by turn bonus to the Wizard the same as all other class specific tokens currently do.


Giving the Wizard Free Action spells with the ability to cast two damage spells per round every round would be very overpowered. Even just allowing it once per room combines with the Cabal set to give it twice per room.


if it is removing the spell box from the card it is only about as powerful as a spell box on a card.
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macXdmg
Monk of the Painda Order
Bard of the College of Sick Beats

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #88

Dave: You misread Quicken. It requires the Free Action to use the Quicken ability so it's max 2 spells per Round. It's just adding a 1/room FA spell using a wording change to get around the FA limitation

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #89

Would it help to allow the Archmage level Absorb to prevent the damage from Mad Evoker's Charm activation? If you have the Legendary, you could basically get one 5 HP activation of the doubling per room (at the cost of a spell slot), with subsequent uses costing the full 25 HP. Not sure if that would be overpowered, and it also doesn't fix the high cost for the charm at the UR and Relic levels. Just tossing ideas out, as this doesn't affect the token text and could still be implemented at this stage.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #90

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: I have received a lot of "feedback" about the last version of the MEC. Frankly, I was surprised by the amount of "passion" (<=nicest term I could think of) for changing the way the token works. To cut to the chase, I have spent the money to make a new plate made so that this "final version" of the MEC will be in print. I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

See the PDF for the final (I am serious this time!) version of the MEC. You will also see how the Relic and Legendary items will work.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf


Has the new plate been finalized or can it be changed? I pray it can


It’s done.

Re your “please please please redesign the cards” you and a lot of people, like brand new players, all could use more HP on a wizard card to make this token viable. Please do not expect it.


So is it your intention to come off as overly aggressive and snide to me? Because that's definitely how it's reading currently.


When the MEC was presented we were told the cards would get a redesign as part of the MEC rework.

The new version of the MEC is not equivalent to the existing version and is currently a massive downgrade to a build defining token that appears to be predicated on a massive redesign of the class and a doubling of our base damage. Without that change being put in place the charm as designed has gone from being a nearly double damage to HP gain into a complete HP to damage loss in it's current version.

Not a single Wizard spell on the existing card even gains a 1 for 1 conversion on damage with the existing token. Wtih level 3 being a 25:20 conversion, level 2 being 25:18 conversion and level 1 being 25:11 conversion.

Without the spell redesign it's hard to see any group allowing such a massive misuse of HP for such weak returns.

And even with new spells the damage required to use this new Mad Evoker's Charm is so high that even doubling the damage output of spells isn't likely to keep the Charm at even it's current use levels based on today, purely due to the massive change of healing required to continue using the token.

I do truly hope the change is not permanent as I do not see the token as written here today being a token that's usable in the current design of True Dungeon without re-adding a massive uptick of healing that was removed several years ago to avoid too much available healing.


It will be very significant especially on area attack spells, and Jeff said that there will be more multiple monster rooms where the Wizard area attack spells will play a larger role.


1 spell per room.

Fighter Legendary gives them cleave attack every single attack.


It seems like you're underselling how powerful it is to be able to do a damage spell as both an instant and damaging additional monsters in every single room, in addition to the other powers. And the MEC can be used on that same spell to do even more damage to multiple monsters. Combine that with a normal area attack spell as the standard action, and that is a ton of damage to multiple monsters, and Jeff said there would be more rooms with multiple monsters.

If I understand correctly, what you're recommending is letting Wizards have the ability to cast a damage spell as an instant and affecting multiple monsters in every single round (in addition to standard damage spells in every round), in addition to the other Mage and Arch Mage abilities. That seems completely broken.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #91

Are there other approaches to make the 'glass' part of the glass cannon?

Spending HP seems to be running into a variety of issues. Tough to balance appropriate costs. Becomes a 'will the rest of the party heal me' issue. And various other concerns that have been raised.

In one of the iterations, Jeff had proposed capping the max HP instead. But this ran into the "ok, so I just won't bother equipping HP beyond a certain point". And the scaling of the cap felt a little odd to me (gain more power from Legendary but cap also gets raised so you're less 'glass' but more cannon).

How about another approach to the 'glass' aspect? What if equipping the MEC cut your Max HP by either 10 HP or 25%, the Relic cut it by either 30 HP or 50%, and the Legendary cut it by 50 HP or 75%? I'm just throwing these numbers out as a starting point (and I'm suggesting that we would decide on either the flat penalty or the %, just tossing both in as possible alternative approaches). You'd still have Wizards with a reason to consider equipping HP boosters. You'd still have the 'glass' aspect of glass cannon. And the HP penalties increasing kind of goes along with the increasing decades of spending time spent in arcane studies leading to more and more degraded health (no matter how much work you put into it). While you'd still have the party concerned about keeping the Wizard alive, it wouldn't be because they chose to use their abilities or not.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #92

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: I have received a lot of "feedback" about the last version of the MEC. Frankly, I was surprised by the amount of "passion" (<=nicest term I could think of) for changing the way the token works. To cut to the chase, I have spent the money to make a new plate made so that this "final version" of the MEC will be in print. I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

See the PDF for the final (I am serious this time!) version of the MEC. You will also see how the Relic and Legendary items will work.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf


Has the new plate been finalized or can it be changed? I pray it can


It’s done.

Re your “please please please redesign the cards” you and a lot of people, like brand new players, all could use more HP on a wizard card to make this token viable. Please do not expect it.


So is it your intention to come off as overly aggressive and snide to me? Because that's definitely how it's reading currently.


When the MEC was presented we were told the cards would get a redesign as part of the MEC rework.

The new version of the MEC is not equivalent to the existing version and is currently a massive downgrade to a build defining token that appears to be predicated on a massive redesign of the class and a doubling of our base damage. Without that change being put in place the charm as designed has gone from being a nearly double damage to HP gain into a complete HP to damage loss in it's current version.

Not a single Wizard spell on the existing card even gains a 1 for 1 conversion on damage with the existing token. Wtih level 3 being a 25:20 conversion, level 2 being 25:18 conversion and level 1 being 25:11 conversion.

Without the spell redesign it's hard to see any group allowing such a massive misuse of HP for such weak returns.

And even with new spells the damage required to use this new Mad Evoker's Charm is so high that even doubling the damage output of spells isn't likely to keep the Charm at even it's current use levels based on today, purely due to the massive change of healing required to continue using the token.

I do truly hope the change is not permanent as I do not see the token as written here today being a token that's usable in the current design of True Dungeon without re-adding a massive uptick of healing that was removed several years ago to avoid too much available healing.


I do not disagree with “it costs too much hp” to be useful. I also think spells should be reconsidered on the cards in the coming years. I believe the prevalence of damage will be watched in the interim and if the token is not being used an errata or card change will be attempted to fix its lack of use. I honestly hope for no errata and an investigation into what “Glass Cannon” really is, monks and Wizards both have armor restrictions, it seems like they should have similar damage output for the dungeon and glass-ness and the wizard should be able to do that with spells were as the monk uses weapons.

I am not being snide, and I don’t see the truth as being aggressive. Wizards are awesome, and should be as awesome in our game as both you and I want them to be. That said, do not expect a card change.
--
macXdmg
Monk of the Painda Order
Bard of the College of Sick Beats

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #93

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Dave: You misread Quicken. It requires the Free Action to use the Quicken ability so it's max 2 spells per Round. It's just adding a 1/room FA spell using a wording change to get around the FA limitation


No surprise that I misread something. It's still a lot to absorb. So much for the cannon ability. This is a considerable loss, so max wizard damage in a round will be slightly less with this new approach. Sigh. Still overall like the abilities, but that's a hit.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #94

I have to say, I am completely baffled by this change. I don't think it accomplished anything that it was supposed to...unless straight up nerfing was the goal (which, I didn't think it was at all, since the 1hp for 1 damage version wasn't actually weaker).

Things I thought the change was doing:
1. Removing the confusing 'double base damage' mechanic. New MEC fails.
2. Avoid complications with card redesign, as doubling creates a ripple effect from any changes made to base spells. New MEC fails.
3. Help push wizard near the top of damage dealers at a heavy cost. New MEC fails.

And even the wizards who complained about their item being changed won't be happy with this. The few I know who were upset; it wasn't about power level. There was no point in trying to convince them that the 1hp/1 damage could be better overall and provide more flexibility, they just didn't like that their favorite token was being changed...new MEC still fails.

...AND it is weaker than either other version. Obviously, the hp cost is higher than original, and the 1for1 version would ALWAYS get more damage out of 25 hp.

The ONLY way this change could have made sense to me is if the wizard card redesign was still happening and doubling all the spell damage (and thus, necessitating a higher hp cost for all the bonus damage). But Jeff says that redesign is waiting to happen with all the others, so that isn't it either?

Also even if, this sets the expectation that any time there is a character card redesign, the MEC will get another update to bring it in line with the new spells...which will upset people all over again.

I just don't understand who this change was meant to appease...except Mike, who just wanted to nerf wizard damage because of a mis-conceived perception of how powerful wizards are.

If a wizard paying 50+ hp was the worry, put a cap on the 1hp/1damage version to limit it.

OK OK. All that out of the way, the relic and legendary have some cool potential. It is unfortunate that much of the perceived value is tied to the nerfed MEC, because I can't see using these items if you don't also use the MEC effect. The relic/legendary powers need to be strong enough on their own to justify the neck slot, 5hp, limited use, and $ that goes into them...and then the MEC can be a small bonus you might use 1/combat for a big attack.
So, if MEC is now locked in the nerfed version, I'm strongly suggest adding to the relic/legendary to be better.
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #95

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Fiddy wrote: How about another approach to the 'glass' aspect? What if equipping the MEC cut your Max HP by either 10 HP or 25%, the Relic cut it by either 30 HP or 50%, and the Legendary cut it by 50 HP or 75%? I'm just throwing these numbers out as a starting point (and I'm suggesting that we would decide on either the flat penalty or the %, just tossing both in as possible alternative approaches). You'd still have Wizards with a reason to consider equipping HP boosters. You'd still have the 'glass' aspect of glass cannon. And the HP penalties increasing kind of goes along with the increasing decades of spending time spent in arcane studies leading to more and more degraded health (no matter how much work you put into it). While you'd still have the party concerned about keeping the Wizard alive, it wouldn't be because they chose to use their abilities or not.


Are you suggesting the with the OR statement a lesser or the two or the greater of the two? Just want to be clear, not providing an opinion either way just looking for understanding.
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #96

I can't even begin to address how stupid this change is. In fact, when it comes to designing and balancing this game you should really stop considering the opinions of whoever is giving you this private 'feedback'.

We're back to square one with this token after discussing for a couple of weeks. We seemed to have a pretty solid consensus on the first final design and now it's been thrown away. It's back to being the original mec doubling affect, AFAICT, with a higher hp cost. If I've misread this, I'll be happy to retract my criticism.

You can't build a game like this and have a power or token that doubles anything. It makes it impossible to continue to extend the game in the future and keep the power levels balanced and under control. The central issue with the outrageous monk and ranger damage is because of this doubling affect. They have double the attacks as anyone else and crits double on top of that. This doubling is the core issue with the game balance and it needs to go and be replaced with some other design concept.

The mec was fixed. Now it's not.

This token is going to have to have an errata attached to it which will be updated regularly over the years as the game evolves.

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