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TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #49

Ok, I guess I misread the download.

I read it as doubling base plus all bonuses.

Just doubling the base and skill check seems far, far too weak for 25 HP. The other powers still seem fun.
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #50

I really don't see them being fun enough...
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #51

jedibcg Banjo 513 Lover wrote: Can some check the math on me for this? A new wizard in 2021 decides to spend $250 to get the MEC because it is the wizard token of 2021. Since they are new they are not level 5 because there isn't a way to get to 5th level in 2021 with just rares, uncommons, and commons. So using just rares, uncommons and commons. How high can you get their HP? I think it is exactly 27 if you have 2 rares from the set and 2 commons. I think it is 26 with 2 rares and 1 common. However the elf wizard must have those 2 rares and those 2 commons to get to 26.

I am not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing. I am just asking someone to check my math and tokens finding skills of the 2021 token set. I only see 4 tokens that affect HP at less than Ultra Rare level.
Belt of the Sweetwoods +1 Con (4hp), Ale Drinker's Bead +3hp, Medallion of Charmed Life +3hp (assuming only the MEC is worn in the charm slot and no other charms), and Ioun Stone Granite Ovoid +1hp. Again not saying this is good or bad just looking for a check that I didn't miss a token or that my math is wrong.

This hypothetical seems *really* unlikely to me. First, you need someone who's starting with 0, looking to spend $250 on tokens, and *only* $250 on tokens (because much more than that can get you the Relic that comes with actual useful abilities for this new wizards). How are they getting hooked? Are they running this by anyone on the forums? If so, the forumites are 100% going to tell them that any UR other than a Treasure Enhancer is a waste of money and they're going to buy the nugget. Are they looking at the token list on TD's website? If so, why would they pick a token that's going to kill them every time they use it? If they just want to buff every spell, there's Pants of Focus to do it for free. If they want to cast more spells, there's Ring of Expertise. If they just want to do a big number of damage, the Spectacles will do that - again, at a cost of zero HP.

I really don't see the scenario in which anyone who can't use a Mad Evoker's Charm goes out of their way to buy one.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #52

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: EDIT: I complete'y misread the update. I think I am OK with the change to the MEC here assuming the base spell damage goes up double as has been mentioned


Don't count on it, from the first post:

Jeff Martin wrote: I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #53

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, thanks for listening to feedback. I'm glad there is a cap now on the MEC damage. I won't comment on current power levels since this is a final final final version.

One question though - for Absorb, does the damage being absorbed need to have been dealt to the Wizard, or can it be to an ally?


The Wizard only.
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #54

Matthew Hayward wrote: Question on Absorb:

1. Can this action be taken after the attack is announced, the attack roll made, and damage announced by the DM?

2. Can only single target attacks be absorbed? Or if, for example, a fireball spell deals 8 damage to all 10 party members, can you Absorb sacrificing a level 2 spell to cancel 50 of it, preventing whichever 50 points of damage as desired?


Q1. Yes...that is the only way it works.

Q2. The Absorb will only work on the Wizard himself. He can use it to stop damage from a Fireball, but the other party members will take the damage.
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #55

Matthew Hayward wrote: Observation:

Quicken's description lists a number of things you could do with your standard action that round, such as make an attack slide, use a wand etc..

There is a problem in that most of those kinds of actions would require a free action to get the relevant items in your hand.

Example: I start the round with Drake's +5 Staff of Focus equipped, and I want to cast a spell, and use a wand.

So first I use Quicken and cast a spell, this costs me a free action for Quicken, and an instant action to cast a spell. But now I can't use a wand since all I have left is a standard action, and my hands are not holding a wand.

I'd recommend adding to Quicken text like that found on Medallion of Mystic Mouth: In addition, quicken allows the Wizard to swap out whatever is in their main hand (e.g. weapon, wand, potion) with a second object requiring a standard action, use that second object, and then stow that second object all as one standard action. After this, whatever was initially in the casters main hands is swapped back in (unless it was consumed, like a potion).


Hmm...let me think about that. It is still pretty powerful to be able to cast two spells or cast a spell and use some magic items. I am afraid adding the wording you are suggesting might cause too much confusion.
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #56

Fiddy wrote: Question on Intensify. What is the order of operations for cases where this spell is used by a Wizard who is wearing Charm of the Cabal? Does Intensify happen first, bringing SR down to 25%, which can then be further lowered by the Charm of the Cabal?


Good question! Let me talk to Druegar as far as precedents...but I would be inclined to say the Intensity happens first.
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #57

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Quite simply, I LOVE THEM!

I assume MEC is still a pool for multi target spells?


Correct.
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #58

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'll analyze Wizard damage output with the Legendary, vs. Medallion of Mystic Mouth.

10 combat rounds over 3 rooms, with 3 rounds in the first two rooms and 4 in the 4th.

I assume:

1. Top end-ish wizard with +30 spell bonus and Medallion of Mystic Mouth, Crown of Expertise, Charm of Spell Swapping, and MeC.

2. The Wizard spell swaps into the highest available non-damage spell.

3. The Wizard uses MeC on their three best spells. One could certainly use MeC more but it would require coordination from multiple players, and/or massive use of consumables - and here I'm analyzing the Wizards contribution.

With Medallion of Mystic Mouth:

2x Lightning Storm with 20 base damage, doubled with MeC : 2*(20+20+30) = 140
1x Magic Missile with 8 base+3 skill check, doubled with MeC : (8+3+8+3+30) = 52
6x Magic Missile with 8 base+3 skill check : 6*(8+3+30) = 246
1x Burning Hands with base 6+3 skill check : 1*(6+3+30) = 39
10 uses of a wand, 8 points for wand + 2 for Human Wizard + 2 for Ioun Stone Flourite Cube : 10*(8+2+2) = 120

Total damage assuming all skill checks pass: 594, at a cost of 75 hp and 3 rare wands.

With the new Legendary:

With the new legendary, the Wizard can casts a Quickened, Conserved Lightning Storm in each room.

3x Quickened, Conserved Lightning Storm, doubled with MeC: 3*(20+20+30) = 210
Now for our remaining 10 standard actions:
2x Lightning Storm with 20 base damage: 2*(20+30) = 100
7x Magic Missile with 8 base+3 skill check : 7*(8+3+30) = 287
1 Burning Hands with base 6+3 skill check : 1*(6+3+30) = 39

Total damage assuming all skill checks pass: 636 at a cost of 105 HP

So this adds ~40 damage over the course of the dungeon at a cost of 30 additional HP but saves you 3 rare wands over MMM, allowing Wizards to deal ~63 points of damage a round on average over 10 rounds. It also gives you lots of flexibility with Absorb, Assure, etc. and for sliding Wizards Pierce.

One could add Ring of Spell Storing to both builds to add another 50 point Lightning Storm, at the cost of 2 damage on each spell. In the MMM build that also costs you 12 damage for the round you use it because you would have been able to use a wand instead.

By comparison, under VTD rules, similarly geared Monks have:

35 melee damage + 10 weapon damage per puck, 70% hit chance, 20% crit chance = 2*45*(.7+2*.2) = 99 points of damage round, with a 36% chance of stunning the monster each round until it's dead or stunned.


Thanks for the computations. Keep in mind the Wizard can do double that damage if two monsters are in the room. Also, VTD needs to go to 1d20 as we are having way too many Crits. Stay tuned.
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #59

Matthew Hayward wrote: Question:

When a Monk's FoB or a Melee ranger's 2 puck attack is Boosted, do both pucks get the full Boost bonus or is it somehow allocated in a pool among the pucks?


Good question! There are a couple ways to go here. How about we just say the spell damage is cut in half (rounded down) for each slide?
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 2 months ago #60

Matthew Hayward wrote: Question:

When does the rules change on Mad Evoker's Charm go into effect?


Another good question...we should probably wait until March so folks have a chance to get them swapped out. Maybe the start of the first V4 run?
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