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TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #241

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: ...
And the divide between Wizards and Healers is off to a great start. What a fantastic token to support cooperation in the dungeon.


I don’t see this as a divide, I see this as a differing of opinions which I feel is healthy. If I ran with Mathew in the dungeon I’m gonna heal him as I am a team player. I don’t see how/why anyone would bring an outside discussion into the dungeon for a tpk


I feel the same. I also play Cleric and Druid sometimes too - so I'll be on both sides of this equation.


It's fun to tease people that you won't be healing them, but ultimately I will heal anyone I can who needs it.

I'm really looking forward to getting to know my wizard friends much more closely.


I plan on using the drug dealers business plan. First taste is free then the cost starts going way up

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #242

Miathan wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: ...
And the divide between Wizards and Healers is off to a great start. What a fantastic token to support cooperation in the dungeon.


I don’t see this as a divide, I see this as a differing of opinions which I feel is healthy. If I ran with Mathew in the dungeon I’m gonna heal him as I am a team player. I don’t see how/why anyone would bring an outside discussion into the dungeon for a tpk


I feel the same. I also play Cleric and Druid sometimes too - so I'll be on both sides of this equation.


It's fun to tease people that you won't be healing them, but ultimately I will heal anyone I can who needs it.

I'm really looking forward to getting to know my wizard friends much more closely.


I plan on using the drug dealers business plan. First taste is free then the cost starts going way up


In most other games, I heal for food. Money is fine, but if you feed me Ill support your crazy and self-destructive antics.

I think there will be moments in a dungeon where there will be judgement calls where maybe the wizard wont be healed, but I think that purposely not healing them when you know you can is not good for team play/moral. It will definitely require more communication between wizards and their healers, which in PUGs would be good especially if there are new players or people who have not established their own group yet.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #243

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Leitz wrote:

Kitkumi wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.


It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?


Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.


Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.


At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.


To chime in on this:

I've been playing the wizard class since my second game, so I think about seven years now. I've tried the other classes at least once over the years, just to see how they play, but wizard is pretty much where I started and wizard is where I stay.

That being said I've been taking a long hard look at my tokens to see if I could easily jump to another spell casting class.

The entire route that the wizard tokens have taken this year has just left a negative feeling. I look at the other class legendaries and feel like my class is nerfed not only in its use but also in the fact that it is tied to other classes (the healers) to be able to use effectively. Where other classes get to have and use their legendary tokens pretty freely, I feel like as the wizard I have to get permission from the party to use mine. I could take care of myself by using healing potions, but I would burn through the supply quickly, which wouldn't be fair to my husband as he also uses them from time to time. I could buy more, but that leaves a sour taste in my mouth because why should I have to buy more tokens in order to use this legendary item that already took so many transmute pieces to make?


I told myself I wouldn't comment in this thread anymore but this brought me back.

This game is very evolutionary. It makes corrections pretty regularly. If you don't want to play wizard anymore, that's your choice. But to make radical changes over this brief snapshot in time is something you might end up regretting.

Things will iron out over the coming years and it would be really, really shocking to me if wizard didn't have viable paths other than mec style in the next year or two.

All classes will eventually experience peaks and valleys. Wizard is now firmly in a valley but it won't stay there.


When was the Wizard peak? I have missed seeing it the entire time I have been playing.

I actually did really like that suggestion by someone else that I shift from Wizard to Druid and refuse to heal anyone equipping MEC or the relic/legendary.



Someone’s a bitter berry :P

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #244

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: I am
Not reading all this.
But it reminds me of the Dark Knight. I was so mad Heath Ledger playing the Joker. I hated the idea. I hated the movie. Then as it got closer and I started looking. I became intrigued and gave it a try. To this day ( the marvel fan I am) it was the best superhero movie.
So just wait and see before you rage quit and do something you will regret.

How the hell am I the voice of reason



Chad in this thread right now with everything blowing up around him.


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Last edit: by Justice.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #245

Justice wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: I am
Not reading all this.
But it reminds me of the Dark Knight. I was so mad Heath Ledger playing the Joker. I hated the idea. I hated the movie. Then as it got closer and I started looking. I became intrigued and gave it a try. To this day ( the marvel fan I am) it was the best superhero movie.
So just wait and see before you rage quit and do something you will regret.

How the hell am I the voice of reason



Chad in this thread right now with everything blowing up around him.


Yep. Beat super hero movie ever.
delpchad.blogspot.com/

First solo Nightmare survivor-2014 Viper pit

Allergic to Lori

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #246

  • bpsymington
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I definitely like the variability of the mage powers. I'll have to see if the relic (or legendary if I can somehow get a wish ring and enough gold) is worth giving up the Charm Necklace.

And while I think The Dark Knight has the best performance in a superhero movie (Heath Ledger's Joker), the best superhero movie is clearly Captain America: The Winter Soldier.
Follow me on Instagram @runningboardgamer

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #247

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Justice wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:
When was the Wizard peak? I have missed seeing it the entire time I have been playing.

I actually did really like that suggestion by someone else that I shift from Wizard to Druid and refuse to heal anyone equipping MEC or the relic/legendary.



Someone’s a bitter berry :P

One of many.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #248

NightGod wrote:

Justice wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:
When was the Wizard peak? I have missed seeing it the entire time I have been playing.

I actually did really like that suggestion by someone else that I shift from Wizard to Druid and refuse to heal anyone equipping MEC or the relic/legendary.



Someone’s a bitter berry :P

One of many.


One of Many.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #249

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Justice wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:
When was the Wizard peak? I have missed seeing it the entire time I have been playing.

I actually did really like that suggestion by someone else that I shift from Wizard to Druid and refuse to heal anyone equipping MEC or the relic/legendary.



Someone’s a bitter berry :P

One of many.


One of Many.


I won't go so far as to say I'm bitter. Well, maybe a little over how the process went, but I think there were many circumstances that went into making it what it was. I will say that in the past I usually couldn't keep up with all of the posts, so my comments were few and far between. But with the investment I have in the wizard class I made a concerted effort this year to stay involved. It wasn't easy There were times I still had to skim read the literally hundreds of posts.

I think I'm still "processing" the end result. I still see some potential and some fun options, but I also keep seeing cross-impacts that I don't like as much. It seems to make sense that using mage and archmage powers would require a free action, but then I realize that it devalues all of the other free action tokens I've accumulated over the years...Cabal Set power, Ring of Spell Storing, Pouch of Tulz and I'm sure there are others. It also limits my interest in future tokens that require a free action. I suddenly realize that using these powers requires me to give up more than just 5 hp. On the other hand, I can also see how these powers could be abused if they didn't require a free action, so there probably isn't a better alternative. Just have to think harder about token choices going forward.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #250

TL:DR; - I'm very sad about the Wizard Legendary.

Changing Quicken to be usable each round per room would make me very happy instead (perhaps at an escalating cost like 5 for the first use in a room, then 10, then 20, then 40 say).

Changing Quicken to be usable 2/room on the legendary would at least get me excited about it.

Heck - even just give me: If you choose not to use the MeC power in a room you may use each mage power a 2nd time instead. That would do it too.




I've been trying to avoid giving a 'hot take' on the Wizard Legendary. I've made plenty of posts on this thread, but most are rules clarification related. I wanted to see if I could figure out a way to really get excited about this token, or if I've missed something (which I often do on the first pass).

It's hard to put into words how dispirited I am about the outcome of this design process, especially with in my eyes the 3 consecutive large steps down in power between the August 28 version and the current version.

A big part of my disappointment is that I feel I try to "play nice" during design and be prosocial. I conduct all my communication in the forums - I would consider it rude to harangue Jeff out of band. I try to back up what I'm saying with clear assumptions and math based models that anyone can follow or critique (other Wizard players have asked me to stop posting analyses that are used to argue against Wizard tokens in the past). I actively try (although I often fail...) to be a positive and constructive influence in the discussion.

It may be only my perception, but I am getting the impression from both some of the statements Jeff has made and some of the information in the description of the new Wizard token which are (to me) very strange and not supported by evidence that whomever is providing this Wizard feedback and/or making these decisions and I have almost no overlap in our conception of "balance" and/or what is going on at Legendary token levels of play in this game.

I'm referring to statements and decisions like:

A. Spotlighting in the Legendary explanation that Wizards have access to 68 HP boosting items in 15 slots, while not mentioning that the vast majority of these tokens conflict with one another, and the ones that can be simultaneously equipped often conflict with other slots needed to add spell damage, and finally not mentioning that Wizards have the lowest HP total in the game and that every other class can exceed Wizard HP totals by equipping the same 68 HP boosting items in the same 15 slots.

This just feels like gaslighting to me. "Oh - Wizards - you're SO GOOD with all you EXTRA HP which is less than every other class that you had it coming."

This is especially annoying when for years Wizards have been told that they shouldn't be upset at not getting a STR (for melee) or DEX (for ranged) volunteer token because the CON volunteer tokens are "for them" because CON/HP boosters are "good for everyone" but are "especially good for wizards, since they have low HP."

B. Stating that MeC, which allows a Wizard to turn a ~50 point Lightning storm into a ~70 point lightning storm, or a ~40 point Magic Missile into a ~50 point magic missile at a drawback of 10 HP needs to be toned down for "balance" reasons when Barbarians are sliding for 70+ every round and monks and rangers are sliding to do 40+ on each of two pucks with a 19+ crit range on ever round.

I simply do not understand how nerfing MeC to a degree where it can be used 1-2 times a game by UR Wizards thus bouncing from maybe 3rd-5th in the damage rankings (behind Monk, Ranger, and likely Barbarian) down to like 5-7th is the priority for what needs adjustment.


Since the rationale for those decisions is not explained, I'm left very confused. Since I can see no good reason for it, ultimately I become frustrated.

Anyway, here is my take on 9 versions of the Wizard legendary we saw in the order we saw them, ranked 1-9 in terms of preference, and also noting if they achieved (according to me) the design goal of having Wizards be the top damage dealers.



08-19 version - This one included 1 extra spell box per spell level, and a "spellbook" that let you add 5 new level 1 spells you could cast using level 1 spell boxes based on scrolls you bring.


Rating: 7th out of 9 designs.

Top damage dealer: No.

Reasoning: I was at least at peace with this design. It solidified for me that Wizards were not supposed to be top damage dealers, and I was somewhat excited to try a new role as a utility wizard with the spellbook. The extra spell boxes were sort of nice, but didn't do too much as running out of spells is not a problem without free actions to cast them.




08-21 version. This included the spellbook and 2 spellboxes at each level castable as a free action.


Rating: 1st out of 9 designs

Top damage dealer: Yes.

Reasoning: Everything I could want. 8 additional spell boxes castable as a free action puts Wizard into the top few damage slots and keeps them there by giving them reliable access to their spell damage bonus twice per round - which is what they need to keep up with Monks and Rangers who have constant access to their melee damage bonus twice per round. Spellbook opens interesting options and gives me a stake in future scrolls. Familiar was dorky, flavorful fun - I would never have let it take a hit for me.

When I saw this token I posted something like: "I wish I'd never read this token, because I'm going to be heartbroken if it changes." Little did I know I had the gift of prophecy.



08-23 version. This included the spellbooks and 1 spellbox at each level castable as a free action.


Rating: 4th (tie) out of 9 designs.

Top damage dealer: Yes, although you might need Cabal set.

Reasoning: We're going backwards here - we lost 4 spells as a free action, but picked up a charm slot by including MeC. We got the ability to use MMM - but it sort of fights with the free action spells. Wizards could still be top damage dealers - maybe with just this token - you could power it up a bit with Cabal Set or RoSS if you don't want to use the MMM ability.



08-26 version


Rating: 9rd out of 9 designs

Top damage dealer: Maybe, barely, with Cabal Set and RoSS.

Reasoning: We're still in reverse, now we're down from 4 FA, one at each level, to 1/room for a level 0 FA spell. But, MeC only costs 5 life, we get a charm slot back for MeC, and the auto-pass skill check damage of 10 just barely ekes out the ability for a Wizard to be a top damage dealer with Cabal Set using this token - especially in VTD rules for the 3x crits on slide spells. Ranked below the first design because it just feels like this token is trying too hard to barely come up with #1 damage. I'd rather be a satisfied utility wizard than a try-hard damage dealer who has to chisel ever possible advantage out to sneak 1 HP damage in front of the Monk while having less HP, AC, and saves.

Aside: The fact that this version was proposed, and then that later on TPTB drew the conclusion that MeC needs to be massively nerfed for game balance reasons is really, really pushing me away from wanting to invest myself in this game - it feels like nothing can ever be secure. TPTB made an explicit announcement during design two years ago that MeC had been evaluated, and it was found to be strong but not overly strong, and it would be coming back soon. It's fine to learn more and change your mind - but explain better what happened in the meantime.



08-28 version
This version was paired with the original function of MeC:


Rating: 4th (tie) out of 9 designs.

Top damage dealer: Yes, with clever builds and/or cooperation of the Cleric.

Reasoning: We're at ~3 free action damage spells (4 with Charm of Spell Swapping, 1 less for Elf Wizard I think). Combos with Crown of Expertise, Restore Spell, and Arcane Set bonus for more. Its still quite powerful, easy to explain, and lets you be a top damage dealer without Cabal Set.




08-29 version
This version was paired with a modified MeC that let you spend 2:1 HP and if you spend 15+ granted access to a mage power of casting the spell a a free action. The free action mage power was limited to 1/room (perhaps the whole channel was 1/room - I'm not sure that was cleared up). Mage powers cost 15 HP. This was also paired with a promise to double Wizard spell damage on the card I believe.


Rating 2nd out of 9 designs (tied with below)

Top damage dealer: Yes, with clever build choices and/or cooperation of healers and consumables.

Reasoning: HP as a resource like this unlocks a ton of analysis, build options, etc.. Unquestionably puts Wizards as the top damage dealers. Mage powers offer flexibility. Combos with Cleric Resurrection / Gem of Last Hope type tokens. This probably needed to be toned down a bit.

The now non-existent Spell Savior mage power on this, as written, would have allowed you to cast a level 0 spell as a free action for 0 HP, (but we never got clarification on that part). So 2 free action spells per room.



08-30 1st version
This version was paired with a modified MeC that let you spend 1:1 HP and if you spent 15+ granted the spell as a free action, but you could only do that 1/room. Mage powers cost 15 HP. This was also paired with a promise to double Wizard spell damage on the card I believe.


Rating 2nd out of 9 designs (tied with above)

Top damage dealer: Yes, with clever build choices and/or cooperation of healers and consumables.

Reasoning: Honestly I'm not sure I remember what the difference between this and the prior version was. It's about the same to me.

The now non-existent Spell Savior mage power on this, as written, would have allowed you to cast a level 0 spell as a free action for 0 HP, (but we never got clarification on that part). So 2 free action spells per room.



08-30 2nd version
This version was paired with a modified MeC that let you spend 1:1 HP 1/round


Rating: 6th of 9

Top damage dealer: Yes, with either Cabal set and/or massive HP reserves and multi-player collaboration or massive consumable use.

Reasoning: Ouch - two huge nerfs: first the damage boosting ratio on MeC goes from 2:1 to 1:1, and also you loose the Free Action ability for MeC. So we're down to 1 FA spell per room again.



09-07 version
We then landed on our current version of the Relic/Legendary with their Archmage powers, with a modified MeC that has the same damage boosting element of the current MeC, but at a cost of 25 HP rather than 10.

Rating 8th of 9.

Top damage dealer: No. Even with Cabal Set + RoSS you just barely edge out Monks using VTD rules and Pierce. We know VTD rules are changing to reduce crits, which will reduce this back below Monks. Without Cabal Set not even close.

Reasoning: From preferences 4th to 2nd to 2nd to 6th to this as the 8th in the span of a week - with several of the steps being "FINAL" was absolutely brutal. This token does more damage than the very first design, but as I said I was at peace with that design and not focusing on damage but on utility. This instead feels like it's trying to do the most damage, and doesn't know how to get there. The change to MeC makes me confused about what TPTB really thing is going on in the dungeon, and makes it unusable as a UR charm in my opinion. Saved from being #9 by the promise of potential future mage powers and the flexibility of some of the mage powers.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #251

Matthew Hayward wrote: TL:DR; - I'm very sad about the Wizard Legendary.

Changing Quicken to be usable each round per room would make me very happy instead (perhaps at an escalating cost like 5 for the first use in a room, then 10, then 20, then 40 say).

Changing Quicken to be usable 2/room on the legendary would at least get me excited about it.

Heck - even just give me: If you choose not to use the MeC power in a room you may use each mage power a 2nd time instead. That would do it too.




I've been trying to avoid giving a 'hot take' on the Wizard Legendary. I've made plenty of posts on this thread, but most are rules clarification related. I wanted to see if I could figure out a way to really get excited about this token, or if I've missed something (which I often do on the first pass).

It's hard to put into words how dispirited I am about the outcome of this design process, especially with in my eyes the 3 consecutive large steps down in power between the August 28 version and the current version.

A big part of my disappointment is that I feel I try to "play nice" during design and be prosocial. I conduct all my communication in the forums - I would consider it rude to harangue Jeff out of band. I try to back up what I'm saying with clear assumptions and math based models that anyone can follow or critique (other Wizard players have asked me to stop posting analyses that are used to argue against Wizard tokens in the past). I actively try (although I often fail...) to be a positive and constructive influence in the discussion.

It may be only my perception, but I am getting the impression from both some of the statements Jeff has made and some of the information in the description of the new Wizard token which are (to me) very strange and not supported by evidence that whomever is providing this Wizard feedback and/or making these decisions and I have almost no overlap in our conception of "balance" and/or what is going on at Legendary token levels of play in this game.

I'm referring to statements and decisions like:

A. Spotlighting in the Legendary explanation that Wizards have access to 68 HP boosting items in 15 slots, while not mentioning that the vast majority of these tokens conflict with one another, and the ones that can be simultaneously equipped often conflict with other slots needed to add spell damage, and finally not mentioning that Wizards have the lowest HP total in the game and that every other class can exceed Wizard HP totals by equipping the same 68 HP boosting items in the same 15 slots.

This just feels like gaslighting to me. "Oh - Wizards - you're SO GOOD with all you EXTRA HP which is less than every other class that you had it coming."

This is especially annoying when for years Wizards have been told that they shouldn't be upset at not getting a STR (for melee) or DEX (for ranged) volunteer token because the CON volunteer tokens are "for them" because CON/HP boosters are "good for everyone" but are "especially good for wizards, since they have low HP."

B. Stating that MeC, which allows a Wizard to turn a ~50 point Lightning storm into a ~70 point lightning storm, or a ~40 point Magic Missile into a ~50 point magic missile at a drawback of 10 HP needs to be toned down for "balance" reasons when Barbarians are sliding for 70+ every round and monks and rangers are sliding to do 40+ on each of two pucks with a 19+ crit range on ever round.

I simply do not understand how nerfing MeC to a degree where it can be used 1-2 times a game by UR Wizards thus bouncing from maybe 3rd-5th in the damage rankings (behind Monk, Ranger, and likely Barbarian) down to like 5-7th is the priority for what needs adjustment.


Since the rationale for those decisions is not explained, I'm left very confused. Since I can see no good reason for it, ultimately I become frustrated.

Anyway, here is my take on 9 versions of the Wizard legendary we saw in the order we saw them, ranked 1-9 in terms of preference, and also noting if they achieved (according to me) the design goal of having Wizards be the top damage dealers.



08-19 version - This one included 1 extra spell box per spell level, and a "spellbook" that let you add 5 new level 1 spells you could cast using level 1 spell boxes based on scrolls you bring.


Rating: 7th out of 9 designs.

Top damage dealer: No.

Reasoning: I was at least at peace with this design. It solidified for me that Wizards were not supposed to be top damage dealers, and I was somewhat excited to try a new role as a utility wizard with the spellbook. The extra spell boxes were sort of nice, but didn't do too much as running out of spells is not a problem without free actions to cast them.




08-21 version. This included the spellbook and 2 spellboxes at each level castable as a free action.


Rating: 1st out of 9 designs

Top damage dealer: Yes.

Reasoning: Everything I could want. 8 additional spell boxes castable as a free action puts Wizard into the top few damage slots and keeps them there by giving them reliable access to their spell damage bonus twice per round - which is what they need to keep up with Monks and Rangers who have constant access to their melee damage bonus twice per round. Spellbook opens interesting options and gives me a stake in future scrolls. Familiar was dorky, flavorful fun - I would never have let it take a hit for me.

When I saw this token I posted something like: "I wish I'd never read this token, because I'm going to be heartbroken if it changes." Little did I know I had the gift of prophecy.



08-23 version. This included the spellbooks and 1 spellbox at each level castable as a free action.


Rating: 4th (tie) out of 9 designs.

Top damage dealer: Yes, although you might need Cabal set.

Reasoning: We're going backwards here - we lost 4 spells as a free action, but picked up a charm slot by including MeC. We got the ability to use MMM - but it sort of fights with the free action spells. Wizards could still be top damage dealers - maybe with just this token - you could power it up a bit with Cabal Set or RoSS if you don't want to use the MMM ability.



08-26 version


Rating: 9rd out of 9 designs

Top damage dealer: Maybe, barely, with Cabal Set and RoSS.

Reasoning: We're still in reverse, now we're down from 4 FA, one at each level, to 1/room for a level 0 FA spell. But, MeC only costs 5 life, we get a charm slot back for MeC, and the auto-pass skill check damage of 10 just barely ekes out the ability for a Wizard to be a top damage dealer with Cabal Set using this token - especially in VTD rules for the 3x crits on slide spells. Ranked below the first design because it just feels like this token is trying too hard to barely come up with #1 damage. I'd rather be a satisfied utility wizard than a try-hard damage dealer who has to chisel ever possible advantage out to sneak 1 HP damage in front of the Monk while having less HP, AC, and saves.

Aside: The fact that this version was proposed, and then that later on TPTB drew the conclusion that MeC needs to be massively nerfed for game balance reasons is really, really pushing me away from wanting to invest myself in this game - it feels like nothing can ever be secure. TPTB made an explicit announcement during design two years ago that MeC had been evaluated, and it was found to be strong but not overly strong, and it would be coming back soon. It's fine to learn more and change your mind - but explain better what happened in the meantime.



08-28 version
This version was paired with the original function of MeC:


Rating: 4th (tie) out of 9 designs.

Top damage dealer: Yes, with clever builds and/or cooperation of the Cleric.

Reasoning: We're at ~3 free action damage spells (4 with Charm of Spell Swapping, 1 less for Elf Wizard I think). Combos with Crown of Expertise, Restore Spell, and Arcane Set bonus for more. Its still quite powerful, easy to explain, and lets you be a top damage dealer without Cabal Set.




08-29 version
This version was paired with a modified MeC that let you spend 2:1 HP and if you spend 15+ granted access to a mage power of casting the spell a a free action. The free action mage power was limited to 1/room (perhaps the whole channel was 1/room - I'm not sure that was cleared up). Mage powers cost 15 HP. This was also paired with a promise to double Wizard spell damage on the card I believe.


Rating 2nd out of 9 designs (tied with below)

Top damage dealer: Yes, with clever build choices and/or cooperation of healers and consumables.

Reasoning: HP as a resource like this unlocks a ton of analysis, build options, etc.. Unquestionably puts Wizards as the top damage dealers. Mage powers offer flexibility. Combos with Cleric Resurrection / Gem of Last Hope type tokens. This probably needed to be toned down a bit.

The now non-existent Spell Savior mage power on this, as written, would have allowed you to cast a level 0 spell as a free action for 0 HP, (but we never got clarification on that part). So 2 free action spells per room.



08-30 1st version
This version was paired with a modified MeC that let you spend 1:1 HP and if you spent 15+ granted the spell as a free action, but you could only do that 1/room. Mage powers cost 15 HP. This was also paired with a promise to double Wizard spell damage on the card I believe.


Rating 2nd out of 9 designs (tied with above)

Top damage dealer: Yes, with clever build choices and/or cooperation of healers and consumables.

Reasoning: Honestly I'm not sure I remember what the difference between this and the prior version was. It's about the same to me.

The now non-existent Spell Savior mage power on this, as written, would have allowed you to cast a level 0 spell as a free action for 0 HP, (but we never got clarification on that part). So 2 free action spells per room.



08-30 2nd version
This version was paired with a modified MeC that let you spend 1:1 HP 1/round


Rating: 6th of 9

Top damage dealer: Yes, with either Cabal set and/or massive HP reserves and multi-player collaboration or massive consumable use.

Reasoning: Ouch - two huge nerfs: first the damage boosting ratio on MeC goes from 2:1 to 1:1, and also you loose the Free Action ability for MeC. So we're down to 1 FA spell per room again.



09-07 version
We then landed on our current version of the Relic/Legendary with their Archmage powers, with a modified MeC that has the same damage boosting element of the current MeC, but at a cost of 25 HP rather than 10.

Rating 8th of 9.

Top damage dealer: No. Even with Cabal Set + RoSS you just barely edge out Monks using VTD rules and Pierce. We know VTD rules are changing to reduce crits, which will reduce this back below Monks. Without Cabal Set not even close.

Reasoning: From preferences 4th to 2nd to 2nd to 6th to this as the 8th in the span of a week - with several of the steps being "FINAL" was absolutely brutal. This token does more damage than the very first design, but as I said I was at peace with that design and not focusing on damage but on utility. This instead feels like it's trying to do the most damage, and doesn't know how to get there. The change to MeC makes me confused about what TPTB really thing is going on in the dungeon, and makes it unusable as a UR charm in my opinion. Saved from being #9 by the promise of potential future mage powers and the flexibility of some of the mage powers.



Wow thank you Matthew!

I have not looked at this thread for probably a week because I was too upset and didn’t want to angry post. Someone else told me about your post and I skipped all the intervening posts and went directly to yours.

I have the same exact feeling. I echo your sentiments on nearly every point. Every year’s Tokens sets include multiple strength dexterity and con Enhancers all of which benefit the Melee classes while focus items fall tragically far behind. If I had access to the entire token database I believe +35 is the maximum focus I could achieve but melee classes can get to +60 damage.
Please visit my fledgling token store.
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247486

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #252

Matthew Hayward wrote: TL:DR; - I'm very sad about the Wizard Legendary.

Changing Quicken to be usable each round per room would make me very happy instead (perhaps at an escalating cost like 5 for the first use in a room, then 10, then 20, then 40 say).

Changing Quicken to be usable 2/room on the legendary would at least get me excited about it.

Heck - even just give me: If you choose not to use the MeC power in a room you may use each mage power a 2nd time instead. That would do it too.




I've been trying to avoid giving a 'hot take' on the Wizard Legendary. I've made plenty of posts on this thread, but most are rules clarification related. I wanted to see if I could figure out a way to really get excited about this token, or if I've missed something (which I often do on the first pass).

It's hard to put into words how dispirited I am about the outcome of this design process, especially with in my eyes the 3 consecutive large steps down in power between the August 28 version and the current version.

A big part of my disappointment is that I feel I try to "play nice" during design and be prosocial. I conduct all my communication in the forums - I would consider it rude to harangue Jeff out of band. I try to back up what I'm saying with clear assumptions and math based models that anyone can follow or critique (other Wizard players have asked me to stop posting analyses that are used to argue against Wizard tokens in the past). I actively try (although I often fail...) to be a positive and constructive influence in the discussion.

It may be only my perception, but I am getting the impression from both some of the statements Jeff has made and some of the information in the description of the new Wizard token which are (to me) very strange and not supported by evidence that whomever is providing this Wizard feedback and/or making these decisions and I have almost no overlap in our conception of "balance" and/or what is going on at Legendary token levels of play in this game.

I'm referring to statements and decisions like:

A. Spotlighting in the Legendary explanation that Wizards have access to 68 HP boosting items in 15 slots, while not mentioning that the vast majority of these tokens conflict with one another, and the ones that can be simultaneously equipped often conflict with other slots needed to add spell damage, and finally not mentioning that Wizards have the lowest HP total in the game and that every other class can exceed Wizard HP totals by equipping the same 68 HP boosting items in the same 15 slots.

This just feels like gaslighting to me. "Oh - Wizards - you're SO GOOD with all you EXTRA HP which is less than every other class that you had it coming."

This is especially annoying when for years Wizards have been told that they shouldn't be upset at not getting a STR (for melee) or DEX (for ranged) volunteer token because the CON volunteer tokens are "for them" because CON/HP boosters are "good for everyone" but are "especially good for wizards, since they have low HP."

B. Stating that MeC, which allows a Wizard to turn a ~50 point Lightning storm into a ~70 point lightning storm, or a ~40 point Magic Missile into a ~50 point magic missile at a drawback of 10 HP needs to be toned down for "balance" reasons when Barbarians are sliding for 70+ every round and monks and rangers are sliding to do 40+ on each of two pucks with a 19+ crit range on ever round.

I simply do not understand how nerfing MeC to a degree where it can be used 1-2 times a game by UR Wizards thus bouncing from maybe 3rd-5th in the damage rankings (behind Monk, Ranger, and likely Barbarian) down to like 5-7th is the priority for what needs adjustment.


Since the rationale for those decisions is not explained, I'm left very confused. Since I can see no good reason for it, ultimately I become frustrated.

Anyway, here is my take on 9 versions of the Wizard legendary we saw in the order we saw them, ranked 1-9 in terms of preference, and also noting if they achieved (according to me) the design goal of having Wizards be the top damage dealers.



08-19 version - This one included 1 extra spell box per spell level, and a "spellbook" that let you add 5 new level 1 spells you could cast using level 1 spell boxes based on scrolls you bring.


Rating: 7th out of 9 designs.

Top damage dealer: No.

Reasoning: I was at least at peace with this design. It solidified for me that Wizards were not supposed to be top damage dealers, and I was somewhat excited to try a new role as a utility wizard with the spellbook. The extra spell boxes were sort of nice, but didn't do too much as running out of spells is not a problem without free actions to cast them.




08-21 version. This included the spellbook and 2 spellboxes at each level castable as a free action.


Rating: 1st out of 9 designs

Top damage dealer: Yes.

Reasoning: Everything I could want. 8 additional spell boxes castable as a free action puts Wizard into the top few damage slots and keeps them there by giving them reliable access to their spell damage bonus twice per round - which is what they need to keep up with Monks and Rangers who have constant access to their melee damage bonus twice per round. Spellbook opens interesting options and gives me a stake in future scrolls. Familiar was dorky, flavorful fun - I would never have let it take a hit for me.

When I saw this token I posted something like: "I wish I'd never read this token, because I'm going to be heartbroken if it changes." Little did I know I had the gift of prophecy.



08-23 version. This included the spellbooks and 1 spellbox at each level castable as a free action.


Rating: 4th (tie) out of 9 designs.

Top damage dealer: Yes, although you might need Cabal set.

Reasoning: We're going backwards here - we lost 4 spells as a free action, but picked up a charm slot by including MeC. We got the ability to use MMM - but it sort of fights with the free action spells. Wizards could still be top damage dealers - maybe with just this token - you could power it up a bit with Cabal Set or RoSS if you don't want to use the MMM ability.



08-26 version


Rating: 9rd out of 9 designs

Top damage dealer: Maybe, barely, with Cabal Set and RoSS.

Reasoning: We're still in reverse, now we're down from 4 FA, one at each level, to 1/room for a level 0 FA spell. But, MeC only costs 5 life, we get a charm slot back for MeC, and the auto-pass skill check damage of 10 just barely ekes out the ability for a Wizard to be a top damage dealer with Cabal Set using this token - especially in VTD rules for the 3x crits on slide spells. Ranked below the first design because it just feels like this token is trying too hard to barely come up with #1 damage. I'd rather be a satisfied utility wizard than a try-hard damage dealer who has to chisel ever possible advantage out to sneak 1 HP damage in front of the Monk while having less HP, AC, and saves.

Aside: The fact that this version was proposed, and then that later on TPTB drew the conclusion that MeC needs to be massively nerfed for game balance reasons is really, really pushing me away from wanting to invest myself in this game - it feels like nothing can ever be secure. TPTB made an explicit announcement during design two years ago that MeC had been evaluated, and it was found to be strong but not overly strong, and it would be coming back soon. It's fine to learn more and change your mind - but explain better what happened in the meantime.



08-28 version
This version was paired with the original function of MeC:


Rating: 4th (tie) out of 9 designs.

Top damage dealer: Yes, with clever builds and/or cooperation of the Cleric.

Reasoning: We're at ~3 free action damage spells (4 with Charm of Spell Swapping, 1 less for Elf Wizard I think). Combos with Crown of Expertise, Restore Spell, and Arcane Set bonus for more. Its still quite powerful, easy to explain, and lets you be a top damage dealer without Cabal Set.




08-29 version
This version was paired with a modified MeC that let you spend 2:1 HP and if you spend 15+ granted access to a mage power of casting the spell a a free action. The free action mage power was limited to 1/room (perhaps the whole channel was 1/room - I'm not sure that was cleared up). Mage powers cost 15 HP. This was also paired with a promise to double Wizard spell damage on the card I believe.


Rating 2nd out of 9 designs (tied with below)

Top damage dealer: Yes, with clever build choices and/or cooperation of healers and consumables.

Reasoning: HP as a resource like this unlocks a ton of analysis, build options, etc.. Unquestionably puts Wizards as the top damage dealers. Mage powers offer flexibility. Combos with Cleric Resurrection / Gem of Last Hope type tokens. This probably needed to be toned down a bit.

The now non-existent Spell Savior mage power on this, as written, would have allowed you to cast a level 0 spell as a free action for 0 HP, (but we never got clarification on that part). So 2 free action spells per room.



08-30 1st version
This version was paired with a modified MeC that let you spend 1:1 HP and if you spent 15+ granted the spell as a free action, but you could only do that 1/room. Mage powers cost 15 HP. This was also paired with a promise to double Wizard spell damage on the card I believe.


Rating 2nd out of 9 designs (tied with above)

Top damage dealer: Yes, with clever build choices and/or cooperation of healers and consumables.

Reasoning: Honestly I'm not sure I remember what the difference between this and the prior version was. It's about the same to me.

The now non-existent Spell Savior mage power on this, as written, would have allowed you to cast a level 0 spell as a free action for 0 HP, (but we never got clarification on that part). So 2 free action spells per room.



08-30 2nd version
This version was paired with a modified MeC that let you spend 1:1 HP 1/round


Rating: 6th of 9

Top damage dealer: Yes, with either Cabal set and/or massive HP reserves and multi-player collaboration or massive consumable use.

Reasoning: Ouch - two huge nerfs: first the damage boosting ratio on MeC goes from 2:1 to 1:1, and also you loose the Free Action ability for MeC. So we're down to 1 FA spell per room again.



09-07 version
We then landed on our current version of the Relic/Legendary with their Archmage powers, with a modified MeC that has the same damage boosting element of the current MeC, but at a cost of 25 HP rather than 10.

Rating 8th of 9.

Top damage dealer: No. Even with Cabal Set + RoSS you just barely edge out Monks using VTD rules and Pierce. We know VTD rules are changing to reduce crits, which will reduce this back below Monks. Without Cabal Set not even close.

Reasoning: From preferences 4th to 2nd to 2nd to 6th to this as the 8th in the span of a week - with several of the steps being "FINAL" was absolutely brutal. This token does more damage than the very first design, but as I said I was at peace with that design and not focusing on damage but on utility. This instead feels like it's trying to do the most damage, and doesn't know how to get there. The change to MeC makes me confused about what TPTB really thing is going on in the dungeon, and makes it unusable as a UR charm in my opinion. Saved from being #9 by the promise of potential future mage powers and the flexibility of some of the mage powers.


A very well written and thought out post. I hope at some point we are given explanation for the changes made to the Wizards with this most recent final design and I still hope that Jeff reverts the massive nerf to the Mad Evoker's Charm and ups the Legendary from 1/room for MP and AMP to 2/room.

Those two changes I think would put this trio of tokens back into the accepted range.

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