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TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #217

Kitkumi wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.


It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?


Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.


Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.


At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.


To chime in on this:

I've been playing the wizard class since my second game, so I think about seven years now. I've tried the other classes at least once over the years, just to see how they play, but wizard is pretty much where I started and wizard is where I stay.

That being said I've been taking a long hard look at my tokens to see if I could easily jump to another spell casting class.

The entire route that the wizard tokens have taken this year has just left a negative feeling. I look at the other class legendaries and feel like my class is nerfed not only in its use but also in the fact that it is tied to other classes (the healers) to be able to use effectively. Where other classes get to have and use their legendary tokens pretty freely, I feel like as the wizard I have to get permission from the party to use mine. I could take care of myself by using healing potions, but I would burn through the supply quickly, which wouldn't be fair to my husband as he also uses them from time to time. I could buy more, but that leaves a sour taste in my mouth because why should I have to buy more tokens in order to use this legendary item that already took so many transmute pieces to make?


I told myself I wouldn't comment in this thread anymore but this brought me back.

This game is very evolutionary. It makes corrections pretty regularly. If you don't want to play wizard anymore, that's your choice. But to make radical changes over this brief snapshot in time is something you might end up regretting.

Things will iron out over the coming years and it would be really, really shocking to me if wizard didn't have viable paths other than mec style in the next year or two.

All classes will eventually experience peaks and valleys. Wizard is now firmly in a valley but it won't stay there.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #218

Leitz wrote:

Kitkumi wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.


It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?


Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.


Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.


At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.


To chime in on this:

I've been playing the wizard class since my second game, so I think about seven years now. I've tried the other classes at least once over the years, just to see how they play, but wizard is pretty much where I started and wizard is where I stay.

That being said I've been taking a long hard look at my tokens to see if I could easily jump to another spell casting class.

The entire route that the wizard tokens have taken this year has just left a negative feeling. I look at the other class legendaries and feel like my class is nerfed not only in its use but also in the fact that it is tied to other classes (the healers) to be able to use effectively. Where other classes get to have and use their legendary tokens pretty freely, I feel like as the wizard I have to get permission from the party to use mine. I could take care of myself by using healing potions, but I would burn through the supply quickly, which wouldn't be fair to my husband as he also uses them from time to time. I could buy more, but that leaves a sour taste in my mouth because why should I have to buy more tokens in order to use this legendary item that already took so many transmute pieces to make?


I told myself I wouldn't comment in this thread anymore but this brought me back.

This game is very evolutionary. It makes corrections pretty regularly. If you don't want to play wizard anymore, that's your choice. But to make radical changes over this brief snapshot in time is something you might end up regretting.

Things will iron out over the coming years and it would be really, really shocking to me if wizard didn't have viable paths other than mec style in the next year or two.

All classes will eventually experience peaks and valleys. Wizard is now firmly in a valley but it won't stay there.


That's why I would be looking at just making a class adjustment, instead of selling my collection or jumping ship completely.

I do agree with you on the game being very evolutionary. I've seen it over the years and bought good tokens only to replace them a few years down the line when an even better thing came along lol.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #219

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.


It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?


Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.


Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.



YES.

At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.

There seems to be a general feeling of 'why bother to care' when it comes to Wizard token design.

We hoped this year would create something truly awesome and unique for the class. Instead one of our core tokens was nerfed to the point of being unusable and our class necklace was designed around the newly maligned token.

I for one am at the point of why care.

I look at the Barbarian necklace, then the Monk necklace, then the Cleric and Fighter. Then I look at Wizard necklace and I just feel sad.

The Mad Evoker's Charm was damaged beyond repair.

The Class Relic is usable on average of 1 attack per room.
The Class Legendary is usable on average of maybe 2.

Then the necklace is a paperweight for the rest of the combat.

That is the shittiest feeling I have had in true dungeon in a long, long time.


So a relic token that gives 5 new abilities is way down on your list under the cleric class? The cleric token only give the ability to cast once a have revive/full heal. The ability to cast free actions, while good, didn’t come with extra spells or anything. Personally I would take the versatility of the mage token over 2 once a game abilities, at the legendary level

And really if the only thing people wanted on the class legendaries was stats and damage, why did we even want them in the first place? The fighter relic could be a generic token that doesn’t have the fighter name on it

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Last edit: by Miathan.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #220

Leitz wrote:

Kitkumi wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.


It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?


Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.


Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.


At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.


To chime in on this:

I've been playing the wizard class since my second game, so I think about seven years now. I've tried the other classes at least once over the years, just to see how they play, but wizard is pretty much where I started and wizard is where I stay.

That being said I've been taking a long hard look at my tokens to see if I could easily jump to another spell casting class.

The entire route that the wizard tokens have taken this year has just left a negative feeling. I look at the other class legendaries and feel like my class is nerfed not only in its use but also in the fact that it is tied to other classes (the healers) to be able to use effectively. Where other classes get to have and use their legendary tokens pretty freely, I feel like as the wizard I have to get permission from the party to use mine. I could take care of myself by using healing potions, but I would burn through the supply quickly, which wouldn't be fair to my husband as he also uses them from time to time. I could buy more, but that leaves a sour taste in my mouth because why should I have to buy more tokens in order to use this legendary item that already took so many transmute pieces to make?


I told myself I wouldn't comment in this thread anymore but this brought me back.

This game is very evolutionary. It makes corrections pretty regularly. If you don't want to play wizard anymore, that's your choice. But to make radical changes over this brief snapshot in time is something you might end up regretting.

Things will iron out over the coming years and it would be really, really shocking to me if wizard didn't have viable paths other than mec style in the next year or two.

All classes will eventually experience peaks and valleys. Wizard is now firmly in a valley but it won't stay there.


When was the Wizard peak? I have missed seeing it the entire time I have been playing.

I actually did really like that suggestion by someone else that I shift from Wizard to Druid and refuse to heal anyone equipping MEC or the relic/legendary.
I play Wizard.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #221

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Leitz wrote:

Kitkumi wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.


It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?


Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.


Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.


At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.


To chime in on this:

I've been playing the wizard class since my second game, so I think about seven years now. I've tried the other classes at least once over the years, just to see how they play, but wizard is pretty much where I started and wizard is where I stay.

That being said I've been taking a long hard look at my tokens to see if I could easily jump to another spell casting class.

The entire route that the wizard tokens have taken this year has just left a negative feeling. I look at the other class legendaries and feel like my class is nerfed not only in its use but also in the fact that it is tied to other classes (the healers) to be able to use effectively. Where other classes get to have and use their legendary tokens pretty freely, I feel like as the wizard I have to get permission from the party to use mine. I could take care of myself by using healing potions, but I would burn through the supply quickly, which wouldn't be fair to my husband as he also uses them from time to time. I could buy more, but that leaves a sour taste in my mouth because why should I have to buy more tokens in order to use this legendary item that already took so many transmute pieces to make?


I told myself I wouldn't comment in this thread anymore but this brought me back.

This game is very evolutionary. It makes corrections pretty regularly. If you don't want to play wizard anymore, that's your choice. But to make radical changes over this brief snapshot in time is something you might end up regretting.

Things will iron out over the coming years and it would be really, really shocking to me if wizard didn't have viable paths other than mec style in the next year or two.

All classes will eventually experience peaks and valleys. Wizard is now firmly in a valley but it won't stay there.


When was the Wizard peak? I have missed seeing it the entire time I have been playing.

I actually did really like that suggestion by someone else that I shift from Wizard to Druid and refuse to heal anyone equipping MEC or the relic/legendary.


Can you make a post of all your run in the future then. I would hate for my PuG healer to be that against team play

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #222

I think a lot of concerns are valid, but still don't see a reason to overreact until we actually see how this turns out in gameplay. For those who always thought MEC was 'broken', I now agree with you, just maybe not in the way you meant it. I will likely use it a couple of times per game near the end, but that's about it.

But having said that, I still think once you get to the M/AM powers that some of those might be fun. I'll adapt and hopefully one day will get the long awaited familiars, spellbook and redesigned class cards. I don't plan to give up on elf wizard as my "go to" build. I see some positive potential in the changes and hope to focus on those.

One of my ongoing concerns will continue to be the increased complexity of playing a wizard at higher levels. We CANNOT get to a point where wizards are explaining all the powers they are using and their effect on combat. That will simply slow down combat too much. Wizards will need to be knowledgeable and adept at just telling the DM if they need a skill check, which spells to mark off the card and then how much damage they did to each monster and if they altered any of the damage type. Those damage calculations are going to be as much or more of a challenge than the skill check. If you struggled in math at school, you may want to pick another class.

I'm starting to think we ought to start up a True Dungeon Wizarding School and hold on-line classes to prepare those who want to go this route. The fun is just starting.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #223

Through all these discussions, I keep remembering what Matthew Hayward posted around version 2 or 3.

Is this good enough, can we support this version as is and not keep wantng more?

If we keep trying for change, we may end up with something far worse.


Oh, if only.....
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #224

Leitz wrote:

Kitkumi wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.


It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?


Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.


Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.


At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.


To chime in on this:

I've been playing the wizard class since my second game, so I think about seven years now. I've tried the other classes at least once over the years, just to see how they play, but wizard is pretty much where I started and wizard is where I stay.

That being said I've been taking a long hard look at my tokens to see if I could easily jump to another spell casting class.

The entire route that the wizard tokens have taken this year has just left a negative feeling. I look at the other class legendaries and feel like my class is nerfed not only in its use but also in the fact that it is tied to other classes (the healers) to be able to use effectively. Where other classes get to have and use their legendary tokens pretty freely, I feel like as the wizard I have to get permission from the party to use mine. I could take care of myself by using healing potions, but I would burn through the supply quickly, which wouldn't be fair to my husband as he also uses them from time to time. I could buy more, but that leaves a sour taste in my mouth because why should I have to buy more tokens in order to use this legendary item that already took so many transmute pieces to make?


I told myself I wouldn't comment in this thread anymore but this brought me back.

This game is very evolutionary. It makes corrections pretty regularly. If you don't want to play wizard anymore, that's your choice. But to make radical changes over this brief snapshot in time is something you might end up regretting.

Things will iron out over the coming years and it would be really, really shocking to me if wizard didn't have viable paths other than mec style in the next year or two.

All classes will eventually experience peaks and valleys. Wizard is now firmly in a valley but it won't stay there.


While I appreciate your optimism, I simply don’t think this is accurate.

Monks and Rangers have been the top damage dealers for at least 5 years and they keep pulling further a heads.

Rangers, Clercis, and especially Druids had a substantial setback when the Eldritch set was redesigned and LoDS function was changed - that was a nearly singular event in the history of TD (I guess there was also when wizards learned mec doesn’t double base spell damage but rather adds a pool of damage equal to the base spell damage...).

There was that one year where Wizards and Druids got a pretty big boost, and to a lesser extent Clerics and Bards when MMM was in print and wands were not expendable, but after one season that was undone.

In general power granting things in TD are not class specific, and in general the most token love in terms of stackable bonuses is given to melee, and then spell, and then physical ranged.

I just don’t see TD as a game where different classes take turns in poll position, or where class differences are ironed out over time.

If you don’t like where wizards are now, you could certainly take a wait and see approach.

I’ve been waiting for wizard to have in game benefits to compensate for their limited resources, lowest saves, lowest AC, worst equipment, and lowest HP for 13 years now - while playing them for flavor reasons in the meantime.

Some things have gotten better - I no longer hear people banging on about how +1 spell damage is an appropriate UR ring effect, or about how Earcuff Of Energy or other UR level “as a scroll” effects are amazingly great. There are numerous tokens at rare and even uncommon for spellcasters (look at how many years Belt/Gauntlet of ogre power existed before a rare +1 focus item to get a sense of how grim it used to be).

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #225

I am
Not reading all this.
But it reminds me of the Dark Knight. I was so mad Heath Ledger playing the Joker. I hated the idea. I hated the movie. Then as it got closer and I started looking. I became intrigued and gave it a try. To this day ( the marvel fan I am) it was the best superhero movie.
So just wait and see before you rage quit and do something you will regret.

How the hell am I the voice of reason
delpchad.blogspot.com/

First solo Nightmare survivor-2014 Viper pit

Allergic to Lori

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #226

Dave wrote: I think a lot of concerns are valid, but still don't see a reason to overreact until we actually see how this turns out in gameplay. For those who always thought MEC was 'broken', I now agree with you, just maybe not in the way you meant it. I will likely use it a couple of times per game near the end, but that's about it.

But having said that, I still think once you get to the M/AM powers that some of those might be fun. I'll adapt and hopefully one day will get the long awaited familiars, spellbook and redesigned class cards. I don't plan to give up on elf wizard as my "go to" build. I see some positive potential in the changes and hope to focus on those.

One of my ongoing concerns will continue to be the increased complexity of playing a wizard at higher levels. We CANNOT get to a point where wizards are explaining all the powers they are using and their effect on combat. That will simply slow down combat too much. Wizards will need to be knowledgeable and adept at just telling the DM if they need a skill check, which spells to mark off the card and then how much damage they did to each monster and if they altered any of the damage type. Those damage calculations are going to be as much or more of a challenge than the skill check. If you struggled in math at school, you may want to pick another class.

I'm starting to think we ought to start up a True Dungeon Wizarding School and hold on-line classes to prepare those who want to go this route. The fun is just starting.


This. Setting aside the disappointment about having the core of our class legendary being a watered down “meh”c with an HP cost that is almost too expensive to use and requires a degree of reliance on other party resources that is unique among legendaries, I am super concerned about complexity. Don’t get me wrong, I was originally drawn to (and love) the class because of the rich complexity and fun choices I get to make in the dungeon. But I have encountered DMs in every run I have done to date that really had a hard time processing wizard abilities, requiring a session of Wizarding School right in the middle of combat (while the fighters snarl and glare). I even created a damage spreadsheet that I laminated and carried with me in the dungeon that laid out all of the math for the various spells and scenarios (MEC, MMM, Spell Store, Bard Song, etc.) in an attempt to make DM’s lives easier and combat move faster.

While I do think the new powers present interesting new choices for wizards, I have never heard a wizard complain about lack of choices with this class and am seriously worried that we just made it exponentially more difficult for DMs and added a major time drag on combat. This feels like the opposite of design elegance. It will be a problem and create even more wizard resentment. “Wait a minute, you’re going to take 3 minutes of combat time fighting with the DM and then expect me to heal your 25 self-inflicted damage? Not worth it.”

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #227

Miathan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.


It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?


Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.


Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.



YES.

At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.

There seems to be a general feeling of 'why bother to care' when it comes to Wizard token design.

We hoped this year would create something truly awesome and unique for the class. Instead one of our core tokens was nerfed to the point of being unusable and our class necklace was designed around the newly maligned token.

I for one am at the point of why care.

I look at the Barbarian necklace, then the Monk necklace, then the Cleric and Fighter. Then I look at Wizard necklace and I just feel sad.

The Mad Evoker's Charm was damaged beyond repair.

The Class Relic is usable on average of 1 attack per room.
The Class Legendary is usable on average of maybe 2.

Then the necklace is a paperweight for the rest of the combat.

That is the shittiest feeling I have had in true dungeon in a long, long time.


So a relic token that gives 5 new abilities is way down on your list under the cleric class? The cleric token only give the ability to cast once a have revive/full heal. The ability to cast free actions, while good, didn’t come with extra spells or anything. Personally I would take the versatility of the mage token over 2 once a game abilities, at the legendary level

And really if the only thing people wanted on the class legendaries was stats and damage, why did we even want them in the first place? The fighter relic could be a generic token that doesn’t have the fighter name on it


Wizard relic grants 5 one per room abilities.

Three of those are conditional to varying degrees of “likely to be useful in one room per dungeon” to “unlikely to Be useful over the course of the entire dungeon.”

One of the two unconditional powers benefits only slide spells, which many wizards disprefer, and which in any case level 5 Elf Wizard has 2 of and Wizard 3 of.

All abilities come with a drawback cost of hp and the use of your free action for the round.

Compare with the cleric relic which basically says: “you can attack and also buff the party or heal every round - if things have gotten weird you can forego attacking for two buffs or heals.”

There is no question to me which of these two effects is more powerful.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 9 months ago #228

Shhhhhh!

Please don't bring up Clerics and Fighters. I'd rather not see any last-minute changes to them happen.

Plenty of good reasons to adjust MEC and the Wizard Relic/Legendary without dragging them into it.

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