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TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #181

  • NightGod
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Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
If you're correct, you've definitely got a cannon effect with these new tokens, that should easily put the Wizard at the top of the damage list like Jeff wants.


Don't get too far ahead of yourself. There are a LOT of what if's in that situation. The wizard has to crit with the slide, and the DF needs a natural 20.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the rule would be base damage is tripled, not doubled and doubled again, as it would be if multiple things add to a crit effect.


Also, absolutely none of what Dave posted will happen, as his line up play requires 3 free actions in one turn.

I suppose it’s not crystal clear, but once all is said and done, I predict:

1. You can’t boost a spell you and also get the cast benefit of its effect. Boost will require a standards and a free action (free for the boost mage power, standard to actually cast the spell) and result in solely the boost happening.

2. You can’t modify two different spells with mage powers on the same turn, you can’t pierce/fork spell A and then quicken spell B. You can apply any number of mage powers to a single spell as a free action. You would need another free action to modify a second spell.

Again, I could be wrong - but I’m will be astonished if I am.

Your interpretation is how I understand it, as well.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #182

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Miathan wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:
Personally, I want to stop posting my feedback publicly and send all of my thoughts as PMs to Jeff. We should all do that. Then, we can’t have our compelling points critiqued by Dr. Uids or anyone else. Clearly, that is what Jeff is asking for by showing us private messages can lead to last minute changes with no room for conversation.


I would rather not be a part of the token design of this is the route taken

It appears to already be happening.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #183

NightGod wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:
Personally, I want to stop posting my feedback publicly and send all of my thoughts as PMs to Jeff. We should all do that. Then, we can’t have our compelling points critiqued by Dr. Uids or anyone else. Clearly, that is what Jeff is asking for by showing us private messages can lead to last minute changes with no room for conversation.


I would rather not be a part of the token design of this is the route taken

It appears to already be happening.


I was saying in response to all ideas be sent behind the scenes. It’s Jeff’s show he is more than welcome to take council from whoever he wants. He could call a random person in China and have them make all the tokens if he wanted.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #184

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Miathan wrote:
I was saying in response to all ideas be sent behind the scenes. It’s Jeff’s show he is more than welcome to take council from whoever he wants. He could call a random person in China and have them make all the tokens if he wanted.

This 100% true, but the community doesn't have to like it. And if they don't like they may choose not to contribute or contribute in another way than happens nows in community forums.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #185

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Dave wrote: I'm starting to think there's a reason wizards were saved for the end of the class specific legendary process. In past years I've said little to nothing in regards to class specific tokens (I may have commented a bit on barbarian or paladin because those are my backup builds), but generally I let those who play that class dominate the conversation. I'm not saying everyone isn't entitled to offer an opinion, but when the conversation around wizards starts to focus on other classes I kind of stop reading. If druids are happy with their class, then I'm happy for them. I really don't care how they stack up to wizards. In the end, it comes down to fun. Whether or not I deal the most damage will not decide how long I continue to play this game. If I'm having fun, I will continue to play. And while I sincerely love the TD community, the development process this year seems a little more tiresome than in the past (maybe that's only because I've participated more).

OK, I said that. I still love the game and I still love you guys. And most of all I love Jeff and the people who share their creativity and allow me to play in their world. Nothing being developed for 2021 makes me hesitant to continue to want to play. I need to say that first, because I do have a frustration to vent. 2020 has been a rollercoaster year for wizard development and has left me optimistic, but less than satisfied. We almost had familiars, but they aren't ready. We almost had a spellbook, but its not ready. We almost had new character cards, but it just isn't the right time (or there's not enough time). We almost were elevated to the top of the damage list, but it doesn't really feel like that happened either. The goal was to make us a glass cannon, but with all the emphasis on beefing up my hp, I'm really not feeling that either. It kind of feels like this year was the year of "almost". I just hope we see some of these things happen while I'm still alive. Ok, I said that too.


Nice post. I have very similar feelings in terms of this being the year of "almost" for the Wizards.

I will also say that I don't envy Jeff for having to try and figure out all the Tokens this year. It seems like each year he's got a hundred things to do and then Token design sneaks up on him. And this year with covid, lost conventions, lost staff, getting VTD up and going...well it seemed like he was even more behind the 8-ball when Token design rolled around. Thing is though if there's something that doesn't pan out or isn't working as intended I'm confident Jeff will get around to fixing it somehow. New Tokens can be printed, TDB can be updated, character cards haven't been finalized so that levers still in play, module design,...bottom line is I'm sure things will work out for Wizards (and other classes).

Wouldn’t the logical solution be to have longer time for token dev? Like, say, 4 months. You can even save time and submit all of the first several rounds of token design as text only, no images.


That sounds nice, but as the owner of a small business myself...well...things don't always go according to plan. They usually never do. I'm sure Jeff would like to have more time for Token development, and more time for set design, and convention planning, and module creation, and....the list goes on. I'm guessing every year he has intentions to give it more time but then shit happens. That's my guess.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #186

Rob F wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Dave wrote: I'm starting to think there's a reason wizards were saved for the end of the class specific legendary process. In past years I've said little to nothing in regards to class specific tokens (I may have commented a bit on barbarian or paladin because those are my backup builds), but generally I let those who play that class dominate the conversation. I'm not saying everyone isn't entitled to offer an opinion, but when the conversation around wizards starts to focus on other classes I kind of stop reading. If druids are happy with their class, then I'm happy for them. I really don't care how they stack up to wizards. In the end, it comes down to fun. Whether or not I deal the most damage will not decide how long I continue to play this game. If I'm having fun, I will continue to play. And while I sincerely love the TD community, the development process this year seems a little more tiresome than in the past (maybe that's only because I've participated more).

OK, I said that. I still love the game and I still love you guys. And most of all I love Jeff and the people who share their creativity and allow me to play in their world. Nothing being developed for 2021 makes me hesitant to continue to want to play. I need to say that first, because I do have a frustration to vent. 2020 has been a rollercoaster year for wizard development and has left me optimistic, but less than satisfied. We almost had familiars, but they aren't ready. We almost had a spellbook, but its not ready. We almost had new character cards, but it just isn't the right time (or there's not enough time). We almost were elevated to the top of the damage list, but it doesn't really feel like that happened either. The goal was to make us a glass cannon, but with all the emphasis on beefing up my hp, I'm really not feeling that either. It kind of feels like this year was the year of "almost". I just hope we see some of these things happen while I'm still alive. Ok, I said that too.


Nice post. I have very similar feelings in terms of this being the year of "almost" for the Wizards.

I will also say that I don't envy Jeff for having to try and figure out all the Tokens this year. It seems like each year he's got a hundred things to do and then Token design sneaks up on him. And this year with covid, lost conventions, lost staff, getting VTD up and going...well it seemed like he was even more behind the 8-ball when Token design rolled around. Thing is though if there's something that doesn't pan out or isn't working as intended I'm confident Jeff will get around to fixing it somehow. New Tokens can be printed, TDB can be updated, character cards haven't been finalized so that levers still in play, module design,...bottom line is I'm sure things will work out for Wizards (and other classes).

Wouldn’t the logical solution be to have longer time for token dev? Like, say, 4 months. You can even save time and submit all of the first several rounds of token design as text only, no images.


That sounds nice, but as the owner of a small business myself...well...things don't always go according to plan. They usually never do. I'm sure Jeff would like to have more time for Token development, and more time for set design, and convention planning, and module creation, and....the list goes on. I'm guessing every year he has intentions to give it more time but then shit happens. That's my guess.


It's always possible also that this is about how long he can put up with it each year, even for someone as patient and understanding as Jeff is. ;)

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #187

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote: Hypothetical Situations
My spell bonus damage is 29.
I cast Ray of Shock a sliding spell with a base damage of 18.
I announce that I'm using MEC to double the base to 36.
I happen to know the monster's weakness and announce I'm using Alter (assume a bonus of 5 pts).
My total damage is 36 + 5 + 29 (bonus spell damage) = 70
I also announce before my slide that I'm using Sharpen, so if I crit does that double the entire 70 to 140?
There is more than one monster in the room, so I'm also going to use Fork.
Q - Do both targets take 140 pts of damage? Fork does say "Both targets are dealt the same damage, including all bonus damage modifiers the initial target was subjected to."
I also announce that I'm using Boost to give my 36 base to the dwarf fighter, using Jeff's example. If the dwarf fighter get a natural 20, that would equal a bonus of 108 pts of damage.

I also announce I'm using Quicken to cast a fireball doing 20 damage to one target and 49 (20+29) to the other.

Scenario 1 - (Unlikely, but possible)
If all of the above is correct (I'm sure I probably have something wrong). Have I contributed a total of 457 points of damage? Even if the crit bonus doesn't extend to 2nd monster through fork the total would be 387 points of damage.
monster 1 = 140 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 108 from dwarf fighter = 297 pts of damage
monster 2 = 140 from Ray of Shock + 20 from Fireball = 160 pts of damage

This would cost me 50 hp and I'd be down to only 1 ability left in this room. (Probably absorb or conserve). Now, a lot has to happen to hit this kind of total. I'm just asking if it's possible.

Scenario 2 (more likely)
Assume I hit the slide but do not crit and I decide to boost a Barbarian using Fury).
Monster 1 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 72 from Barbarian = 191 pts of damage
Monster 2 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 20 from Fireball = 90 pts of damage
Total = 281 points

Scenario 3 (more typical)
Only 1 monster in room, so forget Fork.
Monster 1 = 70 from Ray of Shock + 49 from Fireball + 72 from Barbarian = 191 pts of damage.

Mostly just want to know if I'm interpreting the interaction of these abilities correctly.


You may use Quicken on Lightning storm OR Sharpen on Ray of Shock. Both buffs require your Free Action to cast and it's limited to 1 Free Action buff to 1 spell per turn from what I understand.

A MEC doubled Ray of Shock with Alter and Sharpen that hits 18+ does give 140 damage. In the event there is a second target in the room and you forked the spell that does hit both targets.

You can not Boost the spell to the Dwarf if you are actually casting it as far as I can tell so that's out.

You can not quicken a second spell HOWEVER you could quicken the Ray of Shock and standard action the Fireball.

So you're looking at

MEC+Alter+Quicken+Sharpen+Fork on Ray of shock for 70/140 damage at a cost of 45HP. Assume Conserve as well so 50HP.

Fireball for 20 to each plus 29 pool.

So in that scenerio you are looking at 70/140+20 = 90/160*2+29 = 180/310+29 damage for a cost of 50HP.

That's impressive damage if there's 2 enemies in the room.

That's also 5 times the cost of the mad evoker's charm based on today and it's nearly half your HP assuming Best in Slot Legendary boosts.

It also leaves you turn 2 with MEC Lightning Storm if you have Crown of Expertise for 40*2+29 and nothing else at a cost of 25 more HP.


Well, I did assume I was doing something wrong. Yes, you're right that I would need to quicken the Ray of Shock. I do recall that I cannot modify more than 1 spell, but I should still be able to cast both spells doing it that way. And yeah, after I reread Boost and the entire page its clearer that I'm not casting the spell I use to boost an ally. In fact, I'm using a spell to Boost an ally.

So, can I use Boost on a spell and then my standard action to cast a second spell? Since I'm not actually casting the spell, but only using Boost, isn't this a free action and not a standard action? If not, then it should specifically state that Boost uses a standard action. I think for Boost it should clearly be stated what type of action is required and that you can use MEC, but no other mage/archmage power can be used in the same round that you use Boost. It also kind of implies that you might be checking the spell you boost off of your card, but it should specifically call that out if true. I see a lot of potential for players to misplay this power.

But thanks for the clarification. I am worried a bit that unless players frequent the boards, that these are tokens that come with a lot of questions that DMs will not have time to answer during combat. The DM is just going to want the damage numbers and then we have to hope the player is calculating them correctly. And that's why I'm trying to get clarification now.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #188

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
If you're correct, you've definitely got a cannon effect with these new tokens, that should easily put the Wizard at the top of the damage list like Jeff wants.


Don't get too far ahead of yourself. There are a LOT of what if's in that situation. The wizard has to crit with the slide, and the DF needs a natural 20.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the rule would be base damage is tripled, not doubled and doubled again, as it would be if multiple things add to a crit effect.


Also, absolutely none of what Dave posted will happen, as his line up play requires 3 free actions in one turn.

I suppose it’s not crystal clear, but once all is said and done, I predict:

1. You can’t boost a spell you and also get the cast benefit of its effect. Boost will require a standards and a free action (free for the boost mage power, standard to actually cast the spell) and result in solely the boost happening.

2. You can’t modify two different spells with mage powers on the same turn, you can’t pierce/fork spell A and then quicken spell B. You can apply any number of mage powers to a single spell as a free action. You would need another free action to modify a second spell.

Again, I could be wrong - but I’m will be astonished if I am.


As I wrote it, yes it's 3 FA, but as was pointed out, I can accomplish the same effect with 2 FA by using Quicken on fhe first spell. I just applied that to the wrong spell. But yes, I'm now clear that Boost would have to be to a different spell I'm not casting, so that is a 2nd FA and can't be done in the same round.

But as I stated in my other post, that needs to be very clearly stated in the description. It's only sort of inferred in the clarification. Make it specific and clear or I won't be the only one to misapply the power. Look at how many people misused MEC and for how many years? That one I actually got right from start and had to put up with several players telling me I was doing it wrong and that the bonus applied to all monsters on an AOE spell. Once, a DM told me that was correct and I knew it wasn't. It might be better if coaches make sure players using these tokens are clear on how to use them or it should be covered in training. There's no time in combat to have misunderstandings.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #189

Dave wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
If you're correct, you've definitely got a cannon effect with these new tokens, that should easily put the Wizard at the top of the damage list like Jeff wants.


Don't get too far ahead of yourself. There are a LOT of what if's in that situation. The wizard has to crit with the slide, and the DF needs a natural 20.

Also, I'm pretty sure that the rule would be base damage is tripled, not doubled and doubled again, as it would be if multiple things add to a crit effect.


Also, absolutely none of what Dave posted will happen, as his line up play requires 3 free actions in one turn.

I suppose it’s not crystal clear, but once all is said and done, I predict:

1. You can’t boost a spell you and also get the cast benefit of its effect. Boost will require a standards and a free action (free for the boost mage power, standard to actually cast the spell) and result in solely the boost happening.

2. You can’t modify two different spells with mage powers on the same turn, you can’t pierce/fork spell A and then quicken spell B. You can apply any number of mage powers to a single spell as a free action. You would need another free action to modify a second spell.

Again, I could be wrong - but I’m will be astonished if I am.


As I wrote it, yes it's 3 FA, but as was pointed out, I can accomplish the same effect with 2 FA by using Quicken on fhe first spell. I just applied that to the wrong spell. But yes, I'm now clear that Boost would have to be to a different spell I'm not casting, so that is a 2nd FA and can't be done in the same round.

But as I stated in my other post, that needs to be very clearly stated in the description. It's only sort of inferred in the clarification. Make it specific and clear or I won't be the only one to misapply the power. Look at how many people misused MEC and for how many years? That one I actually got right from start and had to put up with several players telling me I was doing it wrong and that the bonus applied to all monsters on an AOE spell. Once, a DM told me that was correct and I knew it wasn't. It might be better if coaches make sure players using these tokens are clear on how to use them or it should be covered in training. There's no time in combat to have misunderstandings.


A minor update to the Boost power stating that the spell is consumed via the boost action should be listed.

I assume an AoE spell boosted into a slide attack would only hit the main target but a single target boosted into a Fighter with the dual strike would hit both targets.

It's sadly EXTREMELY common for players and DMs not to know the interactions on Wizard tokens. It's common to just have to give them the associated triggers and total damages.

Thankfully I haven't had a DM tell me I missed my Scorching Ray slide for a few years now.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #190

My read of boost as an ArchMage power.

Free Action - Boost = consumes the spell, adds it's base damage to a single slide attack. May Mad Evoker's Charm to double the base damage.

This takes up your Free Action for the turn but does not require a Standard Action as you are not "casting" the spell. It's being channeled into another player off the Free Action Boost ability.

You can not boost a spell and cast it in the same combat. It's either cast as normal or channeled into boost. Technically you could channel Scorching Ray and boost Scorching Ray but that'd be 2 separate spell casts and require 2 spell slots

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #191

Dave wrote: [
So, can I use Boost on a spell and then my standard action to cast a second spell? Since I'm not actually casting the spell, but only using Boost, isn't this a free action and not a standard action?


EDIT: This is wrong:

Here's how I think of it: Boost replaces the effect of one of your cast spells with a new effect, which is add the base damage and skill check bonus to a physical attack slide of another player. Boost does not create or cast the spell (like all mage powers), so you need a spell to transform with Boost. Like all mage powers (except Absorb), it requires a FA to activate.

So you cast a spell (however you do that), and then you boost it with a FA Mage power, replacing its effect with the boost.

You could Quicken+Boost as a FA to cast a spell as an IA whose effect is converted to Boost.

Looking at it another way - clearly Alter doesn't cast the spell that is being altered - it modifies a spell you have already cast via some other means. I think Boost is the same.


Details at:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=251869&start=84#384809

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 8 months ago #192

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Dave wrote: [
So, can I use Boost on a spell and then my standard action to cast a second spell? Since I'm not actually casting the spell, but only using Boost, isn't this a free action and not a standard action?


Here's how I think of it: Boost replaces the effect of one of your cast spells with a new effect, which is add the base damage and skill check bonus to a physical attack slide of another player. Boost does not create or cast the spell (like all mage powers), so you need a spell to transform with Boost. Like all mage powers (except Absorb), it requires a FA to activate.

So you cast a spell (however you do that), and then you boost it with a FA Mage power, replacing its effect with the boost.

You could Quicken+Boost to as a FA, and have the spell whose effect amounts to a boost be cast as an instantaneous action.

Looking at it another way - clearly Alter doesn't cast the spell that is being altered - it modifies a spell you have already cast via some other means. I think Boost is the same.


I disagree completely. Boost appears to sacrifice a spell instead of casting it as a channel of power to another player. It makes no sense that this would take up the Free Action and the Standard Action of the Wizard. They are already giving up a sizable amount of damage losing all spelldamage bonuses to apply boost. It seems extremely harsh to ALSO expect them to lose their standard action.

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