TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

Justice wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards.

I agree, thank you Orion

Is the Dr. UID warning still in effect?

Nah, i just think its funny

OrionW wrote: There are 25 pages in the other thread and Jeff may have been referencing that thread. I do think part of the reason the Wizard token keeps changing is people keep posting.

In that case, we should post a bit more, to buff it a bit....

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: There are 25 pages in the other thread and Jeff may have been referencing that thread. I do think part of the reason the Wizard token keeps changing is people keep posting.

If that is the case I'd hope he would bring a token change to the Wizards to verify we like it before paying to change it. I am still holding out hope that the new plate change is not permanent and he can at least revert it to the last vertion of the Mad Evoker's Charm. The 1:1 channeling is a much cleaner solution than the currently suggested 25HP trigger.

The 1:1 channeling works at all play levels. Let it run 1/round on the 1:1 Channeling and let that work with mage powers. Keep mage powers of this new iteration (minus the spell resistance one, I'd really prefer SR never crop up in TD again, it's just an extremely negative play experience.) and keep the 5HP per activation. Allow max of 2 buffs per activation at Relic and 4 at Legendary, remove the 1/room limit on the necklace powers and you have a solidly strong token that most Wizards will get behind, a charm that Wizards were accepting of the changes to and the general acceptance of most of the class.

I'd still ask for something added to the relic and legendary to make up for the move to the neck slot but we'd be in a much more accepted spot than we are today.

I agree with basically all of this.

I'm ok with spell resistance popping up on higher difficulty, keep it out of hardcore and below, its a bad player experience for under-geared players and make sure we have some other tokens that pop up occasionally to give us the ability to counter it.

The 1:1 Mec was better then the current design. (although its hard to tell if we're basing this on new spells we dont have yet)

I agree the mage powers do not need per-room limitations. We have a hp cost. we don't need a /room limitation. the HP cost does that fairly effectively.

Thinking through all of the proposed changes I think Fiddy's makes the most sense as it places the "glass" aspect on the Wizard instead of the healer.

Seting the Mad Evoker's Charm back to a 10HP trigger but also include a 10% HP penalty for equipping it. Even with tokens to compensate that loss Wizards are looking around 45-60 life at UR level while building for +HP and the damage going out is the same as the existing charm, no quality of life loss for current Mad Evoker Wizards.

At the Relic keep the 5HP trigger per effect, remove the 1/room limitation and change the HP penalty to 25%. That gives a solid boost to potential damage, it keeps the damage costs managable and it puts the largest piece of the penalty on the Wizard instead of other classes.

Move the Legendary to a 30% HP penalty, anything higher pushes towards an unusable level of HP. Allow 7 Mage/Arch Mage choices, Keep Archmage powers to 5HP ea. Add a 1/game instant action to double all damage for 1 combat similar to the Barbarian's Legendary effect. Add a 10HP cost to keep it thematic.

Gives the Wizard a solid boost in damage, makes them much easier to kill and fully embraces that Glass Canon feel

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Thinking through all of the proposed changes I think Fiddy's makes the most sense as it places the "glass" aspect on the Wizard instead of the healer.

Seting the Mad Evoker's Charm back to a 10HP trigger but also include a 10% HP penalty for equipping it. Even with tokens to compensate that loss Wizards are looking around 45-60 life at UR level while building for +HP and the damage going out is the same as the existing charm, no quality of life loss for current Mad Evoker Wizards.

At the Relic keep the 5HP trigger per effect, remove the 1/room limitation and change the HP penalty to 25%. That gives a solid boost to potential damage, it keeps the damage costs managable and it puts the largest piece of the penalty on the Wizard instead of other classes.

Move the Legendary to a 30% HP penalty, anything higher pushes towards an unusable level of HP. Allow 7 Mage/Arch Mage choices, Keep Archmage powers to 5HP ea. Add a 1/game instant action to double all damage for 1 combat similar to the Barbarian's Legendary effect. Add a 10HP cost to keep it thematic.

Gives the Wizard a solid boost in damage, makes them much easier to kill and fully embraces that Glass Canon feel

I'm not a fan of all the complication of hp math here, but at least most of it is in coaching. Not sure if it's necessary to have hp % loss go up as the token increases in quality, I'd rather it stay at like a flat 20-25% or something.

Cassie wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: There are 25 pages in the other thread and Jeff may have been referencing that thread. I do think part of the reason the Wizard token keeps changing is people keep posting.

If that is the case I'd hope he would bring a token change to the Wizards to verify we like it before paying to change it. I am still holding out hope that the new plate change is not permanent and he can at least revert it to the last vertion of the Mad Evoker's Charm. The 1:1 channeling is a much cleaner solution than the currently suggested 25HP trigger.

The 1:1 channeling works at all play levels. Let it run 1/round on the 1:1 Channeling and let that work with mage powers. Keep mage powers of this new iteration (minus the spell resistance one, I'd really prefer SR never crop up in TD again, it's just an extremely negative play experience.) and keep the 5HP per activation. Allow max of 2 buffs per activation at Relic and 4 at Legendary, remove the 1/room limit on the necklace powers and you have a solidly strong token that most Wizards will get behind, a charm that Wizards were accepting of the changes to and the general acceptance of most of the class.

I'd still ask for something added to the relic and legendary to make up for the move to the neck slot but we'd be in a much more accepted spot than we are today.

I agree with basically all of this.

I'm ok with spell resistance popping up on higher difficulty, keep it out of hardcore and below, its a bad player experience for under-geared players and make sure we have some other tokens that pop up occasionally to give us the ability to counter it.

The 1:1 Mec was better then the current design. (although its hard to tell if we're basing this on new spells we dont have yet)

I agree the mage powers do not need per-room limitations. We have a hp cost. we don't need a /room limitation. the HP cost does that fairly effectively.

I agree that Spell Resistance should be limited to Nightmare and above difficulty levels. I think if it's at the lower levels, it could drive newer players away from the game. One of my best friends nearly quit during the Smoak years when he had several spells in a row fizzle due to spell resistance.

Spell Resistence is just honestly a bad mechanic to encounter in True Dungeon. Spellcasting classes are already on restricted resources and still fall behind the damage curve vs several other classes. To add a hidden spell resistence or immunity to a creature makes for a very negative play experience.

I definitely agree if it comes back it needs to be at Nightmare level only so we don't risk alienating players. But I will also say the monster description needs to have some sort of indicator that magic may be blocked. It's easy to identify a Flying/Ranged only target, it should be just as easy to identify a Spell Resistant one.

EDIT: There also needs to be more than 3 tokens in the game that interact with Spell Resistance if it's coming back

To echo some of the other things said in this, I'm not a fan of the new token at all. The fact that the token is not useable out of the pack is really kind of unprecedented to my knowledge - granted I've only been in the game since Deeperdark.

As a wizard, I have always enjoyed the complexity that came with playing the wizard with a MeC. None of the other classes really have that, I'm glad the overall legendary path kept the damage for use, but why in the world is the cost so high? I personally thought increasing the damage to 15 would be enough or the 1/1 hp for dmg boost was fine. This redesign took my favorite token and made it a 1/game effect unless you are steam-rolling the dungeon.

To the people who said you can make a 150hp wizard build, so what? If you make the build and do a bonus 149 pts on damage, great, you hit for barely more than other classes can with a good crit (which is increasingly easy with all of the expanded crit range out there now). Remember that the wizard is never going to get his hp back; no healer is going to push a deluge of heals into the wizard. Plus he dropped all his bonus damage to get to that hp mark so all of his other attacks are going to be super wimpy.

I have issues with some of the powers as well, but I hate the fact that I started out excited to build this legendary token and am now begrudgingly making it since it's the first class legendary for my wizard since I started.

Tl:Dr
-New players can't use it
-hp cost should be brought down to a more manageable 15
-wizard hater's voices are evidently louder than than wizard's
-nerfed the only token that I feel made me viable in nighmare

If the Legendary is changed to allow multiple uses of the same power, Conserve would likely need to go away. Otherwise Wizards will only ever cast a 3rd level spell every round.

OrionW wrote: If the Legendary is changed to allow multiple uses of the same power, Conserve would likely need to go away. Otherwise Wizards will only ever cast a 3rd level spell every round.

Or restrict conserve to level 0/1/2

currently the damage difference between level 1 and 2 spells is 2damage. The only level 3 spell is AOE focused

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Justice wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards.

I agree, thank you Orion

Is the Dr. UID warning still in effect?

Nah, i just think its funny

What does Dr. Uid think of an "Ask Dr. Uid" thread?

Before I start wading through the comments, I just want to say thanks to Jeff and people who helped him (Dtuegar?) for putting so much thought and effort into trying to make us wizards happy!