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TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #121

Justice wrote: I wish the wizard legendary path never included the MEC.

This decision has fundamentally changed wizards going forward.

Thematically I’m not in favor of the whole blood mage sorcerer /warlock feel of having to trade / channel life force into damage as a core tennant.

I’m going to trust Jeff and in his direction. I’m going to hold my judgement for game balance.

My wife and daughter love playing wizards but I for one, won’t be letting my young daughter play down this path.


My condolences wizards.


Thank you for also chiming in, you are the third party to share this opinion of blood mages being a less desirable path.
I play Wizard.

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Last edit: by Anthony Barnstable.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #122

Anthony Barnstable wrote:
Thank you for also chiming in, you are the third party to share this opinion of blood mages being a less desirable path.

A less desirable path for some that is certain a less desirable path for the majority, I don't know. I think it might be similar to the Ranger's Legendary being focused on Ranging. I bet most would say it is a less desirable path, but not all. Maybe at some point there will be other paths.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #123

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards. :)


I'd love it if the Druid weren't frequently brought up as some mythically overpowered bogeyman that justifies power increases in other classes. The Druid is flexible with healing and damage, but certainly not overpowered. The numbers prove that.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #124

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards. :)


I agree, thank you Orion :)

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #125

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards. :)


I'd love it if the Druid weren't frequently brought up as some mythically overpowered bogeyman that justifies power increases in other classes. The Druid is flexible with healing and damage, but certainly not overpowered. The numbers prove that.


Druid was NOT brought up as some mythical boogeyman. I SPECIFICALLY responded to you saying 2 FA spells per combat was too strong for a Legendary token when Druid got a newly created CLERIC token that gives 5 Free Action level 1 spells.

I was not calling out the Druid for being overpowered. I was calling out the Hypocrisy of saying a Class Legendary or Relic that gives the ability to free action a spell more than 1 time per combat, at a cost of health is somehow overpowered when an token was JUST created for another damage dealing class that gives FIVE free action spells and you said not one word about that token being overpowered, even tho it is Ultra Rare and the token you are attacking is a Class Specific Relic.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #126

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Mike Steele wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The Mage Medallion Relic provides some nice options of effects in Quicken and Sharpen, assuming the Wizard player likes sliding spells. Bringing the Crown of Elemental Expertise into the options list is nice, but could use a few more elements to allow for greater diversity.

Fork is a great design but I worry about the limitation of it being damage only. That seems to me that it could be used as a way to restrict Wizards from Forking our strongest spells to a second target by tacking on an unwanted secondary effect. I would suggest instead saying the secondary target only receives the damage of the initial target but is not affected by any secondary effect. That removes the chance of double dipping in secondary effects without removing options from the ability.

Intensify makes me very unhappy to see as a Wizard. Spell Resistance coming into effect again in combat leads to potential MASSIVE wasted HP on a spell trigger that deals no damage simply because the Wizard has no way to know spell resistance is active before casting the spell. It also still gives a 25% chance for the spell to fail, which slows down combat and potentially wastes a powerful spell and HP investiture. And only affects 1 spell cast that turn, AND is only usable 1 time per room. Having spell damage return and having the class relic only be partially effective against it, and only if you know it's coming and only 1 time per room leads to situations where I, as a Wizard, sit out an entire combat, because I did my only 1 spell that can deal damage and it's not worth casting anything I know has a large chance of failing.


At the Relic level I do not see there being much chance that I ever use the Relic necklace Mage Powers more than 1 time per combat.

Intensity is situational, Fork is situational, Alter is situational

Quicken and Sharpen I see getting used together on the same slide spell in every room. Possibly Alter if I know of an elemental resistance or vulnerability specifically related to the only 3 damage options I have on that ability.

No matter what the situation I see this as my combat with the Relic.

Round 1
Quickened, Sharpened, Mad Evokered Scorching Ray (possibly Altered) at a cost of 35HP
Standard Action Spell (Magic missile, scorching ray, etc)

Round 2-100
Mad Evokered whatever spell is strongest.

The Relic no longer gives me any bonus over just having the charm.

The Legendary has the same problem.

I would suggest instead


Relic - Choose 4 Mage Powers, you have access only to these mage powers this run

As a free action 1/round you may apply 1 or 2 of your chosen Mage Powers to a spell. You may also apply Mad Evoker's Charm effect to it as your 1/round application if desired.

Legendary - Choose 7 Mage or Arch Mage powers, you have access only to these powers this run.

As a free action 1/round you may apply 1, 2 or 3 of your chosen Mage Powers to a spell. You may also apply Mad Evoker's Charm effect to it as your 1/round application if desired.




This gives the Wizard the ability to choose powers to match their playstyle and allows the necklace to provide a turn by turn bonus to the Wizard the same as all other class specific tokens currently do.


Giving the Wizard Free Action spells with the ability to cast two damage spells per round every round would be very overpowered. Even just allowing it once per room combines with the Cabal set to give it twice per room.



....... Are you SERIOUSLY saying this after getting FIVE Free Action spells off an Ultra Rare Ring? SERIOUSLY?

Don't forget pushing up to the final hour to get that changed to unlimited, too. Druids now have 5 FAs on a UR ring for no cost and wizards have a max of four (assuming 4 combat rooms, more commonly 3), with a max of one per room AND at the cost of 5HP and having to create a Legendary.

I'm personally missing where the balance is here.


I can't believe that people are still arguing that the Druids are overpowered. Druids have only seven damage spells, and none of them area attacks (unlike the Wizard). Even if they free action the three (not five, since two are healing spells) damage spells from this UR Ring, they will use up six of their seven damage spells in just one room in three rounds of combat. Total base damage plus skill checks for those spells is only 97, or 117 if you spell surge Lightning Storm. Even assuming 30 points of bonus spell damage on each spell, the total damage for all 7 damage spells is only 327. Adding in Charm of Spell Swapping grants at most three additional spells, for 36 more points of base + SK damage, and figuring in 30 points of bonus spell damage that still only gets the Druid to a total of 453 spell damage - for the entire Dungeon.

Wizards have 14 Damage spells (including an Area attack spell), or 16 with Charm of Spell Swapping, and the new UR Ring grants them an additional 3-4 spells (one per room). The MEC allows base and SK spell damage to double, the Wizard Relic allows an additional spell to have damage done to a second monster (doubling the damage) plus allows a spell to be cast as an instant in every room. Unlike the Druid, the Wizard can take full advantage of this because he isn't going to run out of damage spells. Conserve allows the Wizard to recast their best spell in every single room without marking it off (3-4 more 20 point Area attack spells per Dungeon). Combining the new UR Ring, the Legendary class token, and the Charm of Spell Swapping the Wizard can get 22-24 damage spells per adventure to the Druid's 10, and the Wizard gets their best damage spell (which is an area attack spell) 4-5 times in an adventure compared to once for the Druid.

Let's look at the Wizard's Area attack ability with the Legendary Ring. The Wizard can do their area attack spell the regular time plus another 3-4 times per Dungeon (via Conserve), and make their next best spell damage two monsters at once another 3-4 times per Dungeon (via Fork). That's 7-9 Area Attack Spells per Dungeon for the Wizard. Plus, the Wizard can do their best Area Attack spell plus forking their second best damage spell in the first round of every room via Quicken, and one can be MECed.

There is simply no comparison in the amount of spell damage a Druid can do to what a Wizard can do, the Wizard is tremendously far ahead.

Trying to increase the Wizard's power by arguing that the Druid is overpowered is a false argument. The amount of spell damage the Druid can do is only a fraction of what the Wizard can do.

What you keep missing is that people aren't saying Druids are overpowered, they're actually pointing out they're well balanced.

On the other hand, you have spent the entire design process saying wizards are overpowered and druids are too weak, while conveniently hand-waving the amount of HP loss/healing support a wizard would have to undergo to hit the numbers you mention and pretending that druid healing shouldn't be considered part of the balance discussion (and, for that matter, bringing the druid balance discussion to the fore again and again and again while the discussion is really meant to be on the three classes that are getting their legendaries).

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #127

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards. :)


I'd love it if the Druid weren't frequently brought up as some mythically overpowered bogeyman that justifies power increases in other classes. The Druid is flexible with healing and damage, but certainly not overpowered. The numbers prove that.


Druid was NOT brought up as some mythical boogeyman. I SPECIFICALLY responded to you saying 2 FA spells per combat was too strong for a Legendary token when Druid got a newly created CLERIC token that gives 5 Free Action level 1 spells.

I was not calling out the Druid for being overpowered. I was calling out the Hypocrisy of saying a Class Legendary or Relic that gives the ability to free action a spell more than 1 time per combat, at a cost of health is somehow overpowered when an token was JUST created for another damage dealing class that gives FIVE free action spells and you said not one word about that token being overpowered, even tho it is Ultra Rare and the token you are attacking is a Class Specific Relic.


I would have preferred the Druid have been on the UR Ring the Wizard is on. The Druid has so few damage spells, using two per turn seems counterproductive, as they will all run out quickly. The FA spells are much more effective for the Wizard because they are higher level (more powerful) and because the Wizard has so many damage spells he can do two per turn multiple times per room and not still not run out. For the Wizard with the Class Legendary it really is like getting extra spells, because without casting two per turn in some rounds they won't all get used. Plus, you keep saying it's five spells, but two of those are healing, and as was expressed in the Cleric token design, casting multiple healing spells per turn isn't broken since they can be cast after combat is over anyway. I don't see it as hypocrisy because it is apples and oranges.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #128

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards. :)


I'd love it if the Druid weren't frequently brought up as some mythically overpowered bogeyman that justifies power increases in other classes. The Druid is flexible with healing and damage, but certainly not overpowered. The numbers prove that.


Druid was NOT brought up as some mythical boogeyman. I SPECIFICALLY responded to you saying 2 FA spells per combat was too strong for a Legendary token when Druid got a newly created CLERIC token that gives 5 Free Action level 1 spells.

I was not calling out the Druid for being overpowered. I was calling out the Hypocrisy of saying a Class Legendary or Relic that gives the ability to free action a spell more than 1 time per combat, at a cost of health is somehow overpowered when an token was JUST created for another damage dealing class that gives FIVE free action spells and you said not one word about that token being overpowered, even tho it is Ultra Rare and the token you are attacking is a Class Specific Relic.


I would have preferred the Druid have been on the UR Ring the Wizard is on. The Druid has so few damage spells, using two per turn seems counterproductive, as they will all run out quickly. The FA spells are much more effective for the Wizard because they are higher level (more powerful) and because the Wizard has so many damage spells he can do two per turn multiple times per room and not still not run out. For the Wizard with the Class Legendary it really is like getting extra spells, because without casting two per turn in some rounds they won't all get used. Plus, you keep saying it's five spells, but two of those are healing, and as was expressed in the Cleric token design, casting multiple healing spells per turn isn't broken since they can be cast after combat is over anyway. I don't see it as hypocrisy because it is apples and oranges.


Charm of Spell Swapping exists so therefore it's included in any comments about the power of an item giving you free action spells.

Polymorph Druids exist and benefit massively from the new free action ring being a free +41 damage 3/5 times with no negative to the Druid.

Ultimately tho, this thread is about the Wizard class and the Wizard Class Specific token. It would be greatly appreciated if other classes would stop interfering with our class token designs. You've all already done MORE than enough damage to the class build options. Please just leave the rest of the wreckage to us.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #129

I'm starting to think there's a reason wizards were saved for the end of the class specific legendary process. In past years I've said little to nothing in regards to class specific tokens (I may have commented a bit on barbarian or paladin because those are my backup builds), but generally I let those who play that class dominate the conversation. I'm not saying everyone isn't entitled to offer an opinion, but when the conversation around wizards starts to focus on other classes I kind of stop reading. If druids are happy with their class, then I'm happy for them. I really don't care how they stack up to wizards. In the end, it comes down to fun. Whether or not I deal the most damage will not decide how long I continue to play this game. If I'm having fun, I will continue to play. And while I sincerely love the TD community, the development process this year seems a little more tiresome than in the past (maybe that's only because I've participated more).

OK, I said that. I still love the game and I still love you guys. And most of all I love Jeff and the people who share their creativity and allow me to play in their world. Nothing being developed for 2021 makes me hesitant to continue to want to play. I need to say that first, because I do have a frustration to vent. 2020 has been a rollercoaster year for wizard development and has left me optimistic, but less than satisfied. We almost had familiars, but they aren't ready. We almost had a spellbook, but its not ready. We almost had new character cards, but it just isn't the right time (or there's not enough time). We almost were elevated to the top of the damage list, but it doesn't really feel like that happened either. The goal was to make us a glass cannon, but with all the emphasis on beefing up my hp, I'm really not feeling that either. It kind of feels like this year was the year of "almost". I just hope we see some of these things happen while I'm still alive. Ok, I said that too.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #130

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards. :)


I'd love it if the Druid weren't frequently brought up as some mythically overpowered bogeyman that justifies power increases in other classes. The Druid is flexible with healing and damage, but certainly not overpowered. The numbers prove that.


Druid was NOT brought up as some mythical boogeyman. I SPECIFICALLY responded to you saying 2 FA spells per combat was too strong for a Legendary token when Druid got a newly created CLERIC token that gives 5 Free Action level 1 spells.

I was not calling out the Druid for being overpowered. I was calling out the Hypocrisy of saying a Class Legendary or Relic that gives the ability to free action a spell more than 1 time per combat, at a cost of health is somehow overpowered when an token was JUST created for another damage dealing class that gives FIVE free action spells and you said not one word about that token being overpowered, even tho it is Ultra Rare and the token you are attacking is a Class Specific Relic.


I would have preferred the Druid have been on the UR Ring the Wizard is on. The Druid has so few damage spells, using two per turn seems counterproductive, as they will all run out quickly. The FA spells are much more effective for the Wizard because they are higher level (more powerful) and because the Wizard has so many damage spells he can do two per turn multiple times per room and not still not run out. For the Wizard with the Class Legendary it really is like getting extra spells, because without casting two per turn in some rounds they won't all get used. Plus, you keep saying it's five spells, but two of those are healing, and as was expressed in the Cleric token design, casting multiple healing spells per turn isn't broken since they can be cast after combat is over anyway. I don't see it as hypocrisy because it is apples and oranges.


Charm of Spell Swapping exists so therefore it's included in any comments about the power of an item giving you free action spells.

Polymorph Druids exist and benefit massively from the new free action ring being a free +41 damage 3/5 times with no negative to the Druid.

Ultimately tho, this thread is about the Wizard class and the Wizard Class Specific token. It would be greatly appreciated if other classes would stop interfering with our class token designs. You've all already done MORE than enough damage to the class build options. Please just leave the rest of the wreckage to us.


If by "more than enough damage" means posting accurate damage calculations based on the MEC as it was designed and the plans to double spell damage, I think accurate data helps make informed decisions.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #131

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote: If there is one thing I think we can all learn from the 2020 process is that the Druid conversation sucks he oxygen out of the topic. I think we should keep this thread focused on Wizards. :)


I'd love it if the Druid weren't frequently brought up as some mythically overpowered bogeyman that justifies power increases in other classes. The Druid is flexible with healing and damage, but certainly not overpowered. The numbers prove that.


Druid was NOT brought up as some mythical boogeyman. I SPECIFICALLY responded to you saying 2 FA spells per combat was too strong for a Legendary token when Druid got a newly created CLERIC token that gives 5 Free Action level 1 spells.

I was not calling out the Druid for being overpowered. I was calling out the Hypocrisy of saying a Class Legendary or Relic that gives the ability to free action a spell more than 1 time per combat, at a cost of health is somehow overpowered when an token was JUST created for another damage dealing class that gives FIVE free action spells and you said not one word about that token being overpowered, even tho it is Ultra Rare and the token you are attacking is a Class Specific Relic.


I would have preferred the Druid have been on the UR Ring the Wizard is on. The Druid has so few damage spells, using two per turn seems counterproductive, as they will all run out quickly. The FA spells are much more effective for the Wizard because they are higher level (more powerful) and because the Wizard has so many damage spells he can do two per turn multiple times per room and not still not run out. For the Wizard with the Class Legendary it really is like getting extra spells, because without casting two per turn in some rounds they won't all get used. Plus, you keep saying it's five spells, but two of those are healing, and as was expressed in the Cleric token design, casting multiple healing spells per turn isn't broken since they can be cast after combat is over anyway. I don't see it as hypocrisy because it is apples and oranges.


Charm of Spell Swapping exists so therefore it's included in any comments about the power of an item giving you free action spells.

Polymorph Druids exist and benefit massively from the new free action ring being a free +41 damage 3/5 times with no negative to the Druid.

Ultimately tho, this thread is about the Wizard class and the Wizard Class Specific token. It would be greatly appreciated if other classes would stop interfering with our class token designs. You've all already done MORE than enough damage to the class build options. Please just leave the rest of the wreckage to us.


If by "more than enough damage" means posting accurate damage calculations based on the MEC as it was designed and the plans to double spell damage, I think accurate data helps make informed decisions.

The Druid doesn't get to benefit from the UR ring 3-5 times with free action damage spells. Even with Charm of Spell Swapping, it's 3 max. There is a cost to the Druid, it's a dedicated Ring slot, where the Wizard ability is just one of many powers of the Legendary.


Please just stop. This is how our last multi day Druid Wizard fight started.

Please just step back and let the Wizards try to salvage what's left of our class after this change and stay out of it.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 year 4 months ago #132

So one thing that gives me pause is that MEC might not be useable by most 4th level Wizards (The Ion Stone Elfstone Shard kind of makes it work but that is a pretty specific combo and depending on the transmute cost the Wizard may be better off just making the Wizard relic). Are there any other URs that can't be used at 4th level? To me it seems like the cost to use this UR might be too much, considering it could be a Wizards first UR if they pulled it randomly.

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