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TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #73

Its easier to make calculations for VTD. That's all math. Define the inputs and apply probability. Not hard to come up with Min, Max and Average.

On the sliding table, there are a large number of imponderables which makes things much trickier. Take anything based on VTD with a very large grain of salt when thinking about in person outcomes.

As Alex said, until all the factors are known, its just shouting into the ether.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #74

Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote: I just realized channel+fireball is now a thing. Anyone who played MTG back in the day should appreciate that.

Just need time walk


Arch-Mage Power?

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #75

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cassie wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP


It'd be useful to figure out what the Wizard max HP actually is within this context. I know it has been possible in the past to get them to just a tad over 100HP, but there were tradeoffs to get there. Several of those tradeoffs meant giving up spell damage bonuses.


103... I think... not 100% sure if I have everything. had to do manual math on the +3 con from bead, and +10 hp ioun stone while otherwise maximizing spell damage and hp. No point in cabal set if you are using spell storing, and you rarely (never) get to +3 damage on the bracers but otherwise I think this is accurate.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/21e5f7b0-30d0-4e46-bd15-aa1dcb120b32

edit: 92. - forgot synergy.
edit: 97 - Garnet sphere rounds us up anouther +5hp
edit: 103 - Charming Cahochon
edit: 110 - semi lich skull can potentially get you anouther 6+1 at the time 2021 tokens release


That would add another 100 MEC damage in round one, another 50 MEC damage from the Wizard after the full heal, and whatever excess healing the Cleric had from the other heal (maybe conservatively another 10 points). That would be another 160 damage over the two turns, or 1090 total damage by the two Wizards over two rounds.

Guess wizards got their wish - not only did they jump ahead of monk, but they pretty much can account for more damage than the rest of the single puck sliders combined, right?


Smak on a crit hits 300+ damage at no HP cost.

Wizards can hit the 300ish damage at a cost of 50+ HP

Yes Wizards are getting more damage but we don't single handedly outdamage everyone

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #76

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #77

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cassie wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP


It'd be useful to figure out what the Wizard max HP actually is within this context. I know it has been possible in the past to get them to just a tad over 100HP, but there were tradeoffs to get there. Several of those tradeoffs meant giving up spell damage bonuses.


103... I think... not 100% sure if I have everything. had to do manual math on the +3 con from bead, and +10 hp ioun stone while otherwise maximizing spell damage and hp. No point in cabal set if you are using spell storing, and you rarely (never) get to +3 damage on the bracers but otherwise I think this is accurate.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/21e5f7b0-30d0-4e46-bd15-aa1dcb120b32

edit: 92. - forgot synergy.
edit: 97 - Garnet sphere rounds us up anouther +5hp
edit: 103 - Charming Cahochon
edit: 110 - semi lich skull can potentially get you anouther 6+1 at the time 2021 tokens release


That would add another 100 MEC damage in round one, another 50 MEC damage from the Wizard after the full heal, and whatever excess healing the Cleric had from the other heal (maybe conservatively another 10 points). That would be another 160 damage over the two turns, or 1090 total damage by the two Wizards over two rounds.

Guess wizards got their wish - not only did they jump ahead of monk, but they pretty much can account for more damage than the rest of the single puck sliders combined, right?


Smak on a crit hits 300+ damage at no HP cost.

Wizards can hit the 300ish damage at a cost of 50+ HP

Yes Wizards are getting more damage but we don't single handedly outdamage everyone

Really? The serious request is to actually out damage someone using a one of a kind, soul bound, artifact that isn’t guaranteed a crit by any wizard without chance of failure?

Isn’t that over reaching just a tad?

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #78

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: Here is a radical idea. We have VTD. It wouldn’t be that hard to play test this stuff.


This.


+1

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #79

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


I think you're getting lost on the 2 enemies part. Assuming the legendary fighter necklace, and 2 melee enemies,
Fighter slides a crit, does 110 (plus weapon x2) to monster #1
Legendary necklace does the same damage to monster #2.
DF, same thing.

Total damage is 440, plus weapon a x2 and weapon b x2.

Or so I assume.
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #80

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.

Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.


Matthew, I'm confused by your Fighter reslide analysis. Are you saying the Fighter slides a critical hit, then reslides and gets another critical hit, and somehow keeps both the slide and reslide and hits two different targets with critical hits? If so, I don't think that is how reslide works, you only keep second slide even if the first slide was better. Even the critical hit would only double it to 110 per fighter, correct?

That is far less than the 339 damage the Wizard is doing in the final room, and no critical hit is required. And it does it to melee and ranged targets.


The re-slide is if they don't crit on the first slide I assume.

Also it IS Jeff's intention to have the Wizards be the best damage in the game per his previous comments so having output similar to double crit from a Ranger/Monk or crit from a Barbarian at the cost of 75+HPseems appropriate with his stated intention.

That ALL being said we are getting a character card re-design starting next week AND the relic token has effectively not been designed with this most recent change removing all of it's relic level bonuses other than the unlisted mage powers.

Calling for nerfs at this point is not being helpful

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #81

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Cassie wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP


It'd be useful to figure out what the Wizard max HP actually is within this context. I know it has been possible in the past to get them to just a tad over 100HP, but there were tradeoffs to get there. Several of those tradeoffs meant giving up spell damage bonuses.


103... I think... not 100% sure if I have everything. had to do manual math on the +3 con from bead, and +10 hp ioun stone while otherwise maximizing spell damage and hp. No point in cabal set if you are using spell storing, and you rarely (never) get to +3 damage on the bracers but otherwise I think this is accurate.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/21e5f7b0-30d0-4e46-bd15-aa1dcb120b32

edit: 92. - forgot synergy.
edit: 97 - Garnet sphere rounds us up anouther +5hp
edit: 103 - Charming Cahochon
edit: 110 - semi lich skull can potentially get you anouther 6+1 at the time 2021 tokens release


That would add another 100 MEC damage in round one, another 50 MEC damage from the Wizard after the full heal, and whatever excess healing the Cleric had from the other heal (maybe conservatively another 10 points). That would be another 160 damage over the two turns, or 1090 total damage by the two Wizards over two rounds.

Guess wizards got their wish - not only did they jump ahead of monk, but they pretty much can account for more damage than the rest of the single puck sliders combined, right?


Smak on a crit hits 300+ damage at no HP cost.

Wizards can hit the 300ish damage at a cost of 50+ HP

Yes Wizards are getting more damage but we don't single handedly outdamage everyone

Really? The serious request is to actually out damage someone using a one of a kind, soul bound, artifact that isn’t guaranteed a crit by any wizard without chance of failure?

Isn’t that over reaching just a tad?


Excellent point.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #82

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually an


Matthew, can you link to a discussion of other classes that average 500 points of damage each over two rounds? I agree a comparison with other classes is helpful.

I don't think this is any sort of unprecedented analysis, it is strictly damage by Wizard classes, with a healing assist by the Cleric. It could be as easily an analysis of either individual Wizard class, since they do very similar damage.


I prefer to think of it as simply the Cleric channeling the power of Pelor through two Wizard vessels.


Haha, I do kind of love this image. :)

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #83

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think “what can two or more classes do” is a relatively new branch of True Dungeon power analysis we haven’t seen much before.

It’s putting up some shocking numbers, but I think these numbers would be less shocking contextualized against a background of what other pairs or trips can achieve.

All the builds I’ve seen discusssed here are pretty bonkers, assume access to virtually any token, some done have room for all the treasure enhancers, etc.


For example, in round numbers:

BiS fighters with power attack can have say 55 melee damage including their damage wheel.

Edit: Sigh... I'm confused Thor's with Io's.

If two such fighters slide a 18+ with Thor’s (remember, human fighter gets a reslide, and they Can both have the FoP that lets them reside), then they crit hitting two melee reachable enemies for:

2 fighters * 2 enemies * 2 crit * 55 = 440 total damage. If DF hits a 20 add another 110 for triple crit.

They can do this at no HP cost while having an AC that makes them essentially unhittable up through Nightmare.


Should the Wizard stuff be toned down?

Maybe!

But if we could:

A. Wait to see what the other changes are, which are on the way.

B. Carefully consider whether we are reacting to the relative difference between the Wizard and other classes at similar tiers, or just throwing up big numbers and saying - “wow - that’s a lot!!!”

I think we would be making faster progress.

Keep in mind, your basing your fighter Damage Numbers on 2 crits, neither of which is guaranteed. We should run the numbers considering no one gets crits - neither the wizard nor the sliders. Also factor non ideal attack conditions - target monster is flying, for example.


Edit: Sigh... I'm confused Thor's with Io's.


In vtd the odds of critting with Thor’s are 30%.

The odds of critting with a reslide attempt if you reslide when the first attempt isn't a crti are 51%.

The odds of critting with two reslide attempts are about 66%.

Taking the a 50% percent crit chance due to reslide chance leaves fighters with something like:

2 fighters * 2 monsters * 55 damage * ( 40 % hit chance + 2*50% crit chance ) = 308 damage on average.


Yes, one monster might fly.

Yes, one or both monsters might be immune or resistant to shock / fire / magic in the two Wizards scenario others have contemplated.

My point here isn’t “The new tokens are balanced."

My point is effectively multiplying the the typical damage result for a single character by a factor of two to four, by assuming a scenario with two non-resistant enemies, and two characters acting in concert without providing context on what two different characters can do in similar circumstances is likely to lead to incorrect conclusions about relative power levels.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #84

OrionW wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: Here is a radical idea. We have VTD. It wouldn’t be that hard to play test this stuff.


This.


+1


+2

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