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TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #37

Harlax wrote: Here is a radical idea. We have VTD. It wouldn’t be that hard to play test this stuff.


This.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #38

Looking at the new Wizard tokens, and going with the assumption Jeff gave us that Wizard spells will double in damage on the spell card. This time expanding a second turn.

Even with the new tokens, if the spell damage is doubled, if the Wizard has 51 HP (and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP since 25 HP bonuses are available from this set alone), 35 bonus spell damage, the MEC, Cabal Set Bonus and the Ring of Spell Storing, the Wizard can do this on the first round and second round:

Cast Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points, add 35 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 50 points, for 125 damage.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points and 35 bonus spell damage for 75 points of damage.
Combining those two, each Wizard can do 200 points of damage in the first turn. With both Wizards, you're looking at 400 points of damage in just the first round of combat, and that doesn't require the Wizard Class Relic or Legendary, just the MEC. 160 points of that would be damage to all monsters while 240 damage is pool damage.

First round after Wizards cast, Cleric casts Full heal from Relic on one Wizard plus Cure Serious Wounds as instant action on the other Wizard (full heal as long as the Cleric has at least +26 healing bonus). Both Wizards are back to 51 HP.

Second Round: Wizard casts Scorching Ray for 121 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage plus 50 MEC damage) and Ray of Shock FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 71 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage) for 192 damage total.
Elf Wizard casts Ray of Shock for 121 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage plus 50 MEC damage) plus Magic Missile via Cabal Set Bonus for 57 damage (22 plus 35 bonus damage) for a total of 178 damage.

Looking at the Infernal Redoubt module, that means that on Round one the two Wizards by themselves can kill the Mindslayer on Nightmare mode (400 HP) by themselves on round one while also dealing 160 damage to Blackthorn. That is 560 damage by the two Wizards in Round 1 of the final room. On Round 2, after healing by the Cleric, the Wizards deal a combined 370 damage to Blackthorn, who had 340 HP left so he is dead as well.

The two Wizards, with only the Cleric helping by healing them at the end of Round one, are able to deal all the damage necessary (930 points) by themselves to kill both the Mind Slayer and Blackthorn in the final room of Infernal Redoubt. This is actually a conservative estimate, since Wizards can likely get above 51 HP (this year alone there are +25 HP in three tokens).

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #39

kurtreznor wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Question - I didn't see the answer to this in the Player's Handbook (I probably just missed it), but I figure the Wizard players would know. When a Wizard casts Lightning Storm which damages all monsters, is the Bonus Spell Damage (like from Focus tokens) added to the damage each monster takes, or is it a pool divided among all the monsters?

Pool


Thanks! I knew the MEC damage was a pool, I wasn't sure of the rest.


Mad evoker use to double base damage plus skill check before it was chsnged....base was dealt to all monsters plus spell damage from focus items was a pool to be dealt. Now this will probably change with the revisions.


Maybe one of the mage powers or archmage powers can be to apply bonus damage to all targets instead of as a pool.


IIRC, all multi-target spells and effects hit each target for the base amount plus skill check if any, and all bonuses go into a pool. e.g. Soothe Wounds (SW) heals all in the party by three, and then any bonuses from tokens, Eldritch set, etc go into the pool. But I can’t find the definitive reference, just a few examples about wands and SW.

So for MEC (or anything else) to copy bonus damage (or healing) onto multiple targets would be a big power jump. That was one of the factors that led to the LoDS nerf. (Which admittedly also copied the base healing, but for many NM healers the bonus healing is much higher than the base anyway.)

Not saying it should or shouldn’t, but I’d expect a lot of debate about it.
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"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #40

Mike Steele wrote: Looking at the new Wizard tokens, and going with the assumption Jeff gave us that Wizard spells will double in damage on the spell card. This time expanding a second turn.

Even with the new tokens, if the spell damage is doubled, if the Wizard has 51 HP (and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP since 25 HP bonuses are available from this set alone), 35 bonus spell damage, the MEC, Cabal Set Bonus and the Ring of Spell Storing, the Wizard can do this on the first round and second round:

Cast Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points, add 35 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 50 points, for 125 damage.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points and 35 bonus spell damage for 75 points of damage.
Combining those two, each Wizard can do 200 points of damage in the first turn. With both Wizards, you're looking at 400 points of damage in just the first round of combat, and that doesn't require the Wizard Class Relic or Legendary, just the MEC. 160 points of that would be damage to all monsters while 240 damage is pool damage.

First round after Wizards cast, Cleric casts Full heal from Relic on one Wizard plus Cure Serious Wounds as instant action on the other Wizard (full heal as long as the Cleric has at least +26 healing bonus). Both Wizards are back to 51 HP.

Second Round: Wizard casts Scorching Ray for 121 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage plus 50 MEC damage) and Ray of Shock FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 71 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage) for 192 damage total.
Elf Wizard casts Ray of Shock for 121 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage plus 50 MEC damage) plus Magic Missile via Cabal Set Bonus for 57 damage (22 plus 35 bonus damage) for a total of 178 damage.

Looking at the Infernal Redoubt module, that means that on Round one the two Wizards by themselves can kill the Mindslayer on Nightmare mode (400 HP) by themselves on round one while also dealing 160 damage to Blackthorn. That is 560 damage by the two Wizards in Round 1 of the final room. On Round 2, after healing by the Cleric, the Wizards deal a combined 370 damage to Blackthorn, who had 340 HP left so he is dead as well.

The two Wizards, with only the Cleric helping by healing them at the end of Round one, are able to deal all the damage necessary (930 points) by themselves to kill both the Mind Slayer and Blackthorn in the final room of Infernal Redoubt. This is actually a conservative estimate, since Wizards can likely get above 51 HP (this year alone there are +25 HP in three tokens).

Might as well give both wizards Crown of Expertise so they can recast Fireball / Lightning Storm round 2 as well.

Should also probably point out that Blackthorn's flying status and relatively high AC are meaningless in this example too. Blackthorn could be AC 60 and it wouldn't matter.

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #41

If these numbers are remotely accurate, don't be surprised when spell resistance rears it ugly head.

Or Anti Magic Field/Shell (depending on your edition of preference.

Or dead magic zones.

Or just because types of hoses..
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Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #42

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Looking at the new Wizard tokens, and going with the assumption Jeff gave us that Wizard spells will double in damage on the spell card. This time expanding a second turn.

Even with the new tokens, if the spell damage is doubled, if the Wizard has 51 HP (and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP since 25 HP bonuses are available from this set alone), 35 bonus spell damage, the MEC, Cabal Set Bonus and the Ring of Spell Storing, the Wizard can do this on the first round and second round:

Cast Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points, add 35 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 50 points, for 125 damage.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm (Elf Wizard Fireball) for 40 points and 35 bonus spell damage for 75 points of damage.
Combining those two, each Wizard can do 200 points of damage in the first turn. With both Wizards, you're looking at 400 points of damage in just the first round of combat, and that doesn't require the Wizard Class Relic or Legendary, just the MEC. 160 points of that would be damage to all monsters while 240 damage is pool damage.

First round after Wizards cast, Cleric casts Full heal from Relic on one Wizard plus Cure Serious Wounds as instant action on the other Wizard (full heal as long as the Cleric has at least +26 healing bonus). Both Wizards are back to 51 HP.

Second Round: Wizard casts Scorching Ray for 121 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage plus 50 MEC damage) and Ray of Shock FA via Cabal Set Bonus for 71 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage) for 192 damage total.
Elf Wizard casts Ray of Shock for 121 damage (36 plus 35 bonus damage plus 50 MEC damage) plus Magic Missile via Cabal Set Bonus for 57 damage (22 plus 35 bonus damage) for a total of 178 damage.

Looking at the Infernal Redoubt module, that means that on Round one the two Wizards by themselves can kill the Mindslayer on Nightmare mode (400 HP) by themselves on round one while also dealing 160 damage to Blackthorn. That is 560 damage by the two Wizards in Round 1 of the final room. On Round 2, after healing by the Cleric, the Wizards deal a combined 370 damage to Blackthorn, who had 340 HP left so he is dead as well.

The two Wizards, with only the Cleric helping by healing them at the end of Round one, are able to deal all the damage necessary (930 points) by themselves to kill both the Mind Slayer and Blackthorn in the final room of Infernal Redoubt. This is actually a conservative estimate, since Wizards can likely get above 51 HP (this year alone there are +25 HP in three tokens).

Might as well give both wizards Crown of Expertise so they can recast Fireball / Lightning Storm round 2 as well.

Should also probably point out that Blackthorn's flying status and relatively high AC are meaningless in this example too. Blackthorn could be AC 60 and it wouldn't matter.


Excellent point. Crown of Expertise would also give the Wizards a third round of double-spell damage, with massive MEC bonus on it as well after the Cleric healed one of them at the end of round two with a standard healing spell and the other with a Free Action healing spell.


Maybe don’t count on double-Cleric healing. The point of our relic was to let us support AND do something fun, like attack. We’ll take care of one Wizard, and Druids can heal the other.

But yes, I see the potential.
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"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #43

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I just realized channel+fireball is now a thing. Anyone who played MTG back in the day should appreciate that.
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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #44

Mike Steele wrote: and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP


It'd be useful to figure out what the Wizard max HP actually is within this context. I know it has been possible in the past to get them to just a tad over 100HP, but there were tradeoffs to get there. Several of those tradeoffs meant giving up spell damage bonuses.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #45

Endgame wrote: Moving to legendary is fine - glad to see more on the legendary to be honest.

Sleep well!


+1 from another happy cleric. Thanks Jeff!
dmrzzz's trade thread

Yes, my AC is lower than the Wizard's. No regrets!

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #46

Picc wrote: I just realized channel+fireball is now a thing. Anyone who played MTG back in the day should appreciate that.

Just need time walk

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #47

Everyone is worried about what a wizard can do by using all of the best gear and biggest spells all at one time. I played VTD with Smak and watched him one shot the first monster for 300+ and the rest of the party got a nice 11 minute plus time to chat. Everything is broken at this point.
Fall down......Go boom!

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 year 8 months ago #48

Harlax wrote: If these numbers are remotely accurate, don't be surprised when spell resistance rears it ugly head.

Or Anti Magic Field/Shell (depending on your edition of preference.

Or dead magic zones.

Or just because types of hoses..


The numbers are actually conservative, because Wizards can get HP well above 51. You can get +50 HP just from Kilt of Dungeonbane, Charm of Synergy, and from this year Elfstone Shard, Medallion of the Sweetwoods, and Sunstone Shard. Plus, as was pointed out, Crown of Expertise would have allowed another use of the 20 Pt. area attack spell.

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