TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Marc D wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote:

Endgame wrote: The area between book ends is the design space for new tokens, and keeps an expected progression. Like no drawback +2 str rare gloves -> No drawback +4 str UR gloves -> +5 str no drawback Relic gloves -> +6 str no drawback legendary gloves.

I know this doesn't add to the conversation, but Berserker Gloves would like a word with you

Seriously, though: how did those get printed at Rare when Gauntlets of Ogre Power exist?

TL;DR: Because it helps players learn.

Many game designers of collectible games find it a good thing to differ the power level of tokens.

There are no "good" tokens unless there are also "bad" tokens - there would just be average tokens if there were no bad ones.

A token like this gives a new player, early collector, or non-tokenaholic a good chance at an "a-ha!" moment: Gauntlets of Ogre Power are strictly better that Berserker Gloves.

That person may then begin to look at the rest of their collection for other places they could upgrade.

The Berserker Gloves were a completion token. What could be more enticing to bring someone into buying tokens than to give them one which has a clear upgrade path for a few bucks.

New players to TD tend to prize AC and HP boosters. Experienced players prize damage and saves.

Berserker gloves seemed like they were designed to pair with tokens for retribution damage. You want to be certain that monsters hit you if you're running a retribution build, so Berserk Gloves are strictly better than Gauntlets of Ogre Power in this regard.

Philip Goodman wrote:

Marc D wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote:

Endgame wrote: The area between book ends is the design space for new tokens, and keeps an expected progression. Like no drawback +2 str rare gloves -> No drawback +4 str UR gloves -> +5 str no drawback Relic gloves -> +6 str no drawback legendary gloves.

I know this doesn't add to the conversation, but Berserker Gloves would like a word with you

Seriously, though: how did those get printed at Rare when Gauntlets of Ogre Power exist?

My guess is that completion tokens are not discussed in token development. It's cool because we get surprised by completion tokens. The drawback are tokens like this and the melee damage ioun stone tokens this year:

Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid +2 melee damage
Ioun Stone Jasper Prism +1 melee damage

These don't quite make sense when compared to a UR from the previous year:
Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism +2 melee damage as fire

I'm sure many would have recommended against these completion tokens, had they known about them prior to printing.

Ah; I didn't look close enough to see that they were a completion token. I thought they were a standard-pack companion to Belt of the Berserker:
tokendb.com/token/belt-of-the-berserker/

Yeah, completion tokens seem a bit up and down in terms of power levels. But, the surprise element is always nice, and they often stay on theme to a particular adventure. So, trade offs I guess.

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Marc D wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote:

Endgame wrote: The area between book ends is the design space for new tokens, and keeps an expected progression. Like no drawback +2 str rare gloves -> No drawback +4 str UR gloves -> +5 str no drawback Relic gloves -> +6 str no drawback legendary gloves.

I know this doesn't add to the conversation, but Berserker Gloves would like a word with you

Seriously, though: how did those get printed at Rare when Gauntlets of Ogre Power exist?

TL;DR: Because it helps players learn.

Many game designers of collectible games find it a good thing to differ the power level of tokens.

There are no "good" tokens unless there are also "bad" tokens - there would just be average tokens if there were no bad ones.

A token like this gives a new player, early collector, or non-tokenaholic a good chance at an "a-ha!" moment: Gauntlets of Ogre Power are strictly better that Berserker Gloves.

That person may then begin to look at the rest of their collection for other places they could upgrade.

The Berserker Gloves were a completion token. What could be more enticing to bring someone into buying tokens than to give them one which has a clear upgrade path for a few bucks.

New players to TD tend to prize AC and HP boosters. Experienced players prize damage and saves.

Berserker gloves seemed like they were designed to pair with tokens for retribution damage. You want to be certain that monsters hit you if you're running a retribution build, so Berserk Gloves are strictly better than Gauntlets of Ogre Power in this regard.

Hmm. Didn't consider this.
Maybe it is all part of TPTB's master plan.

Endgame wrote:

Marc D wrote:

Endgame wrote: Keep each rarity at a specific power level.

Players will eventually move to the next “level” of tokens organically - you don’t need to creep the power of rare tokens, an engaged player will move on to ultra rare, then relic, then legendary.

This model only works if you've exhausted the design space at a certain power level. The game is far from the point. I'd actaully say a lot of the "power creep" over the past 10 years has come from simply filling out the design space according to this exact model.

Take boots as an example. At UR, there definitely seems to be some design book ending like you suggest:
+3 to one physical stat & part of a set without +level
+2 to one physical stat & part of a set with +level
+3 typed damage to one attack type; +5 for 2-handed weapons
Rogue stuff

But, with the 2021 set, there's ostensibly "power creep" with the debut of +3 Strength boots that add a "to hit" component to the +damage before.

So, given that design space is far from exhausted at UR, and probably not even at Rare (see: Belt of the Sweetwoods, lack of Dex/Con analogs to Amulet of Vigor, etc.), how would book ending alone keep power levels steady as the design space fills out?

Ideally, the bookends would have been created in the first several releases of tokens, but I think we are mostly there anyway. Lets go with boots, as you suggest. We have:

+1 damage uncommon boots
+2 damage Rare boots
+3 damage boots for 1H
+5 damage boots for 2H.

These are the bookends for damage. Creating a +3 Str boot does not exceed the bookend for damage, so we're OK. There is an undefined bookend for + hit on boots, but the Str boots have traded some +damage for some +hit, so we are not creeping damage with the new release.

Rare neck is its own oddity, because it was never developed more or less from its inception. Prior to 2019, the high water mark was.... +2 AC at rare. Following the progression from rare to UR on other slots, amulet of vigor doesn't go far enough to follow the progression.

Maybe 2022 should be the year to book end a few missing pieces?

Maybe it should? The point remains, though:
-It looks like the book ending you suggest is already implemented
-One set/year means it takes a while to explore space within those bookends
-Characters will naturally grow in power as that design space gets filled out, which can be seen as power creep year over year

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Marc D wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote:

Endgame wrote: The area between book ends is the design space for new tokens, and keeps an expected progression. Like no drawback +2 str rare gloves -> No drawback +4 str UR gloves -> +5 str no drawback Relic gloves -> +6 str no drawback legendary gloves.

I know this doesn't add to the conversation, but Berserker Gloves would like a word with you

Seriously, though: how did those get printed at Rare when Gauntlets of Ogre Power exist?

TL;DR: Because it helps players learn.

Many game designers of collectible games find it a good thing to differ the power level of tokens.

There are no "good" tokens unless there are also "bad" tokens - there would just be average tokens if there were no bad ones.

A token like this gives a new player, early collector, or non-tokenaholic a good chance at an "a-ha!" moment: Gauntlets of Ogre Power are strictly better that Berserker Gloves.

That person may then begin to look at the rest of their collection for other places they could upgrade.

The Berserker Gloves were a completion token. What could be more enticing to bring someone into buying tokens than to give them one which has a clear upgrade path for a few bucks.

New players to TD tend to prize AC and HP boosters. Experienced players prize damage and saves.

TIL.

Thanks for the explanation. It does make sense to have "good" and "bad" tokens at a rarity level that cause re-analysis of current collections.

That said, it seems odd to have that "a ha!" moment locked behind a Hardcore completion token. It seems the people who acquire that token through runs already passed that moment.

I think we can all agree, Jeff and company do their best to balance the characters as new tokens are released. And when something needs to be changed, such as MEC or Cload of Shadowskin, Jeff will change them. And if a character card needs to be tweeked a bit, like the Wizards do, Jeff is changing them.

That being said, I think trying to make a bunch of changes to the status queue is a bad idea. The system works. Maybe a few tokens that need the odd adjustment here and there. But overall, the system works. Are all classes equal? Not really. But that's okay.

Ultimately this game has always been more about how the players play the game. Much of the game is based on the honor system. That players are accounting for their tokens properly. That we are counting our HP honestly.
And, when one or more players have beefed up characters, among a group of newbies, those players will usually play down to the group. I've been the new player and I've been the experienced player. As the new player I appreciated the player with 7 Orange tokens not overtaking the combat. I've tried to do the same now that i've substantially upgraded my character over the years. I have a Rare buiild at the ready, with a simple Sling and Sword. I'm happy to downplay my character to not be the guy that kills the Normal dungeon monster in one shot.

I don't agree that the Monk and Ranger are, in practice, overwhelmingly powerful over the rest of the group. Both have great options. But that does not always translate to skill with a slider. and the potential for MAX damage with 2 pucks is so remotely slim when you consider the variables of the table: Other sliders bumping tokens, other sliders being in the way of Crit areas, and the limited size of crit areas.

BUT, if in a run, you find that your Ranger or Monk is simply destroying the monsters...leaving no room for others to contribute to the demise of the monster. Then simply nerf yourself. Slide one puck once in a while. Slide last so the Crit areas are likely covered and can't be touched. Whatever you think appropriate.
In the case of Wizards. If they are destroying monsters in one shot with a spell, maybe use lesser spells next time.


My point is, there are options within us as players that can mitigate one class dominating the game. We don't have to make so many changes that some folks are talking about here. We can keep the integrity of what each class is right now, along with the tokens they use.

If you are worried that you can't use all the fancy tokens because you leveled yourself down a bit as I mentioned, they simply find a group that will be on your level. This way you can use the max potential of the character you built.

There are options besides making so many changes that some have suggested.


This is just my POV


(In case anyone is wondering, I play a Ranged Ranger. I do so with just my Io's Bow. No dual slide. I find my accuracy with one puck is better than the extra 6 pts of damage the Charm was potentially giving me.)

DrStupid v1.0 wrote: BUT, if in a run, you find that your Ranger or Monk is simply destroying the monsters...leaving no room for others to contribute to the demise of the monster. Then simply nerf yourself. Slide one puck once in a while. Slide last so the Crit areas are likely covered and can't be touched. Whatever you think appropriate.
In the case of Wizards. If they are destroying monsters in one shot with a spell, maybe use lesser spells next time.

My point is, there are options within us as players that can mitigate one class dominating the game. We don't have to make so many changes that some folks are talking about here. We can keep the integrity of what each class is right now, along with the tokens they use.

If you are worried that you can't use all the fancy tokens because you leveled yourself down a bit as I mentioned, they simply find a group that will be on your level. This way you can use the max potential of the character you built.

Honestly, this is the most important thing to keep in mind. This is a game, it's meant to be fun and, especially once you get into the Nightmare+ world, you have a LOT of flexibility in your build (and I'm SO FAR from being BIS geared, running about 50hp/25 dmg as wizard, lots and lots of room for growth still).

It's also important to not forget that it's not a zero-sum game and it's not PVP. Wizards don't have to take damage away from monks before they can see an increase to spell damage. Since it's a collaborative effort, the Ranger sliding double-crits helps us all.

I love running with PUGs for my first run of new adventures because I get to meet new people and can help newer players get past the mental block of moving to Hardcore. Most of the time, PUGs will end up with two or three well-geared players who can help convince the newer folks to give Hardcore a shot and help them realize that it's nowhere near as scary as they were expecting (and, in many cases, is more fun because combat has a more obvious edge of danger to it).

Nothing is stopping you from talking to the DM and asking them to let the combat run longer or to ignore half of your damage so the new players have more fun sliding and winning at the last second if you get into the dungeon and realize you just face-rolled the first fight. Plus we can provide TEs and level bumps and some URs here and there to expose them to the collection side of things and hopefully direct them to the forums where they can become active members of the community. Wins all around.

DrStupid v1.0 wrote: I think we can all agree, Jeff and company do their best to balance the characters as new tokens are released. And when something needs to be changed, such as MEC or Cload of Shadowskin, Jeff will change them. And if a character card needs to be tweeked a bit, like the Wizards do, Jeff is changing them.

That being said, I think trying to make a bunch of changes to the status queue is a bad idea. The system works. Maybe a few tokens that need the odd adjustment here and there. But overall, the system works. Are all classes equal? Not really. But that's okay.

Ultimately this game has always been more about how the players play the game. Much of the game is based on the honor system. That players are accounting for their tokens properly. That we are counting our HP honestly.
And, when one or more players have beefed up characters, among a group of newbies, those players will usually play down to the group. I've been the new player and I've been the experienced player. As the new player I appreciated the player with 7 Orange tokens not overtaking the combat. I've tried to do the same now that i've substantially upgraded my character over the years. I have a Rare buiild at the ready, with a simple Sling and Sword. I'm happy to downplay my character to not be the guy that kills the Normal dungeon monster in one shot.

I don't agree that the Monk and Ranger are, in practice, overwhelmingly powerful over the rest of the group. Both have great options. But that does not always translate to skill with a slider. and the potential for MAX damage with 2 pucks is so remotely slim when you consider the variables of the table: Other sliders bumping tokens, other sliders being in the way of Crit areas, and the limited size of crit areas.

BUT, if in a run, you find that your Ranger or Monk is simply destroying the monsters...leaving no room for others to contribute to the demise of the monster. Then simply nerf yourself. Slide one puck once in a while. Slide last so the Crit areas are likely covered and can't be touched. Whatever you think appropriate.
In the case of Wizards. If they are destroying monsters in one shot with a spell, maybe use lesser spells next time.


My point is, there are options within us as players that can mitigate one class dominating the game. We don't have to make so many changes that some folks are talking about here. We can keep the integrity of what each class is right now, along with the tokens they use.

If you are worried that you can't use all the fancy tokens because you leveled yourself down a bit as I mentioned, they simply find a group that will be on your level. This way you can use the max potential of the character you built.

There are options besides making so many changes that some have suggested.


This is just my POV


(In case anyone is wondering, I play a Ranged Ranger. I do so with just my Io's Bow. No dual slide. I find my accuracy with one puck is better than the extra 6 pts of damage the Charm was potentially giving me.)

Just so you are aware...ranger and I believe monk must slide two pucks in melee combat. Just throw one to intentionally miss.

Adam Guay wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote: I think we can all agree, Jeff and company do their best to balance the characters as new tokens are released. And when something needs to be changed, such as MEC or Cload of Shadowskin, Jeff will change them. And if a character card needs to be tweeked a bit, like the Wizards do, Jeff is changing them.

That being said, I think trying to make a bunch of changes to the status queue is a bad idea. The system works. Maybe a few tokens that need the odd adjustment here and there. But overall, the system works. Are all classes equal? Not really. But that's okay.

Ultimately this game has always been more about how the players play the game. Much of the game is based on the honor system. That players are accounting for their tokens properly. That we are counting our HP honestly.
And, when one or more players have beefed up characters, among a group of newbies, those players will usually play down to the group. I've been the new player and I've been the experienced player. As the new player I appreciated the player with 7 Orange tokens not overtaking the combat. I've tried to do the same now that i've substantially upgraded my character over the years. I have a Rare buiild at the ready, with a simple Sling and Sword. I'm happy to downplay my character to not be the guy that kills the Normal dungeon monster in one shot.

I don't agree that the Monk and Ranger are, in practice, overwhelmingly powerful over the rest of the group. Both have great options. But that does not always translate to skill with a slider. and the potential for MAX damage with 2 pucks is so remotely slim when you consider the variables of the table: Other sliders bumping tokens, other sliders being in the way of Crit areas, and the limited size of crit areas.

BUT, if in a run, you find that your Ranger or Monk is simply destroying the monsters...leaving no room for others to contribute to the demise of the monster. Then simply nerf yourself. Slide one puck once in a while. Slide last so the Crit areas are likely covered and can't be touched. Whatever you think appropriate.
In the case of Wizards. If they are destroying monsters in one shot with a spell, maybe use lesser spells next time.


My point is, there are options within us as players that can mitigate one class dominating the game. We don't have to make so many changes that some folks are talking about here. We can keep the integrity of what each class is right now, along with the tokens they use.

If you are worried that you can't use all the fancy tokens because you leveled yourself down a bit as I mentioned, they simply find a group that will be on your level. This way you can use the max potential of the character you built.

There are options besides making so many changes that some have suggested.


This is just my POV


(In case anyone is wondering, I play a Ranged Ranger. I do so with just my Io's Bow. No dual slide. I find my accuracy with one puck is better than the extra 6 pts of damage the Charm was potentially giving me.)

Just so you are aware...ranger and I believe monk must slide two pucks in melee combat. Just throw one to intentionally miss.

Or slide last and try to bump the newbies into a better number.

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

archmage78 wrote: solve real problems. power cheap is real and needs to be solved. going after 2 classes does nothing and solves nothing.

I'm curious. What is your definition of power creep? As you seem to agree that power creep is real and should be solved.

I think that most participating in the discussion feel that damage dealt in a round is a large aspect of power creep. Is that not a part of your definition?

No, going after 2 classes is not dealing with power creep. I'm sorry that you don't understand that. First, you aren't discussing power creep, you are attacking 2 classes because their damage potential is higher than yours... well thats great, thats the point of choosing to have to use 2 hands in combat, the point of having lower AC, of making it more difficult on yourself. If a monk can do their slides correctly and still hit then he or she should be rewarded with more damage. And for the millionth time, if you are going to attack 2 classes for doing more damage than you, what about rogue players who even with sneak attack damage are still watching the barbarian do 20 or 30 points more damage. No, your conversation is people thinking it is unfair that the ranger and monk have damage potential not a discussion about power creep. It is hidden under a veil but read the posts.

So yes, solve real problems like power creep, don't try to nerf 2 classes you don't like.

Don't worry about what people are saying about Monk and Ranger. I want to hear what your definition of power creep is.

I don't have a definition of Power Creep. You keep repeating this poor debate tool as if I am the issue. I don't have a definition of power creep because it isn't my definition, there is only the definition of power creep which is a general uptick in power of the players of the game. The tokens keep getting stronger and more slots keep getting added to make all characters more powerful. A well equiped party can now do 5 to 600 points of damage in a round where as 15 years ago that was more like 2 to 300. Power creep is about the whole game getting more powerful tokens. That is the definition of power creep, not my definition, but the definition.

If you actually want to discuss power creep, discuss power creep. In today's game there is no need to worry about hold, damage reduction, critical hit imunities, or even ranged combat because now we have tokens to ignore everything. We have new slots every year which then jumps up our power. Discuss all of these if you want to discuss power creep. Discussing power creep is to discuss the actual power creep, not the two class features that have always been class features.

Again, and Mike even admitted as such, this discussion of nerfing 2 characters isn't about power creep. Discussing nerfing the class features that make the characters unique of two particular classes that you simply feel do too much damage compared to the other characters is not power creep. It has nothing to do with power creep. It is simply nerfing 2 character classes. It also continually ignores the fact that the classes are harder to play because sliding two tokens is far more difficult to accomplish...especially the monk.

NightGod wrote:

DrStupid v1.0 wrote: BUT, if in a run, you find that your Ranger or Monk is simply destroying the monsters...leaving no room for others to contribute to the demise of the monster. Then simply nerf yourself. Slide one puck once in a while. Slide last so the Crit areas are likely covered and can't be touched. Whatever you think appropriate.
In the case of Wizards. If they are destroying monsters in one shot with a spell, maybe use lesser spells next time.

My point is, there are options within us as players that can mitigate one class dominating the game. We don't have to make so many changes that some folks are talking about here. We can keep the integrity of what each class is right now, along with the tokens they use.

If you are worried that you can't use all the fancy tokens because you leveled yourself down a bit as I mentioned, they simply find a group that will be on your level. This way you can use the max potential of the character you built.

Honestly, this is the most important thing to keep in mind. This is a game, it's meant to be fun and, especially once you get into the Nightmare+ world, you have a LOT of flexibility in your build (and I'm SO FAR from being BIS geared, running about 50hp/25 dmg as wizard, lots and lots of room for growth still).

It's also important to not forget that it's not a zero-sum game and it's not PVP. Wizards don't have to take damage away from monks before they can see an increase to spell damage. Since it's a collaborative effort, the Ranger sliding double-crits helps us all.

I love running with PUGs for my first run of new adventures because I get to meet new people and can help newer players get past the mental block of moving to Hardcore. Most of the time, PUGs will end up with two or three well-geared players who can help convince the newer folks to give Hardcore a shot and help them realize that it's nowhere near as scary as they were expecting (and, in many cases, is more fun because combat has a more obvious edge of danger to it).

Nothing is stopping you from talking to the DM and asking them to let the combat run longer or to ignore half of your damage so the new players have more fun sliding and winning at the last second if you get into the dungeon and realize you just face-rolled the first fight. Plus we can provide TEs and level bumps and some URs here and there to expose them to the collection side of things and hopefully direct them to the forums where they can become active members of the community. Wins all around.

Perfectly said!!!!

Iross wrote: Also, if the perceived issue is power creep then I'm not sure how banning huge amounts of 10 year old tokens would help - surely if the problem is power creep then the new tokens are the issue, not the old ones?

Because I don't think anyone answered this directly - the reason removing 10-year-old tokens from the pool will help is that, at least in theory, new tokens don't have to be designed to be more powerful than old tokens to make them desirable if the old token is no longer playable.