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NightGod wrote:

Daniel Mickey wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: [

Rangers and Monks can average 140+ damage per round each without crit so I have no idea why the Wizards doing the same damage, at the cost of lost HP would be an issue.

Can you please link a chacter build for these outputs? I play Ranger and I am as absolutely maxed out as I can build and I can't touch 140 plus points of damage without a critical hit. I am seriously not understanding where you got these numbers.

I am also interested in this as well as I just put together a monk using all of the strength modifies I could find in the TDCC and got a minimum of 56 to a max of 61 per puck without using consumables, support from other classes, or bard song. If I missed something I would be happy to modify the build and review the values provided, but I am not seeing 140+ with just a build alone. It should also be worth noting that not all of these tokens are readily available to everybody with dropping a serious amount of money as well as no less than 4 legendary tokens. I think Legendary tokens should get you something nice since they are not cheap to make and usually result in many dungeon runs and monetary investment in the form of token purchases.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/5e3e0619-1777-499f-a74d-b58c85b32fdc

All of the theoretical builds in this thread have used crazy tokens, bard songs, etc. People are building for max possible, not max realistic.

I.e. the Wizard builds require a dedicated healer in order to do the damage quoted.

Daniel Mickey wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: [

Rangers and Monks can average 140+ damage per round each without crit so I have no idea why the Wizards doing the same damage, at the cost of lost HP would be an issue.

Can you please link a chacter build for these outputs? I play Ranger and I am as absolutely maxed out as I can build and I can't touch 140 plus points of damage without a critical hit. I am seriously not understanding where you got these numbers.

I am also interested in this as well as I just put together a monk using all of the strength modifies I could find in the TDCC and got a minimum of 56 to a max of 61 per puck without using consumables, support from other classes, or bard song. If I missed something I would be happy to modify the build and review the values provided, but I am not seeing 140+ with just a build alone. It should also be worth noting that not all of these tokens are readily available to everybody with dropping a serious amount of money as well as no less than 4 legendary tokens. I think Legendary tokens should get you something nice since they are not cheap to make and usually result in many dungeon runs and monetary investment in the form of token purchases.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/5e3e0619-1777-499f-a74d-b58c85b32fdc

OK - let's get crazy!

You start with your build linked above, which gives a melee damage bonus of 48 and auto hits on Nightmare in VTD on any non-1 result.

Your average weapon damage is 10.5, for an average puck damage of 58.5.

Then you add two runstone fitting bases and 3 damage runestones: +3 damage
5th level Bard with the Legendary Lute: +4/+4
Elf Wizard hits you with Bull's Strength: +2/+2
You use Pouch of Tulz to apply a +5 damage oil at the start of the first round
Hitchhiking Ghost: Flog and a +2 damage rare boots

So now your Per Puck damage is: 58.5+3+4+3+5+2 = 75.5.

In VTD rules you'll hit 70% of the time and crit 20% of the time. Let's lose your Bracers of Fire for Bracers of Guided Strike so your crit's always work, updated per puck damage with that swap is: 73.5

Average damage is then:

2 pucks * 73.5 * ( 0.7 hit chance + 2 * 0.2 crit chance ) = 161.7 points of damage per round on average.

But wait - this isn't silly enough! The other 9 party members all equip Wish Ring and use it to give you +45 damage for the boss room.

Updated damage 118.5 average damage per puck => 260.7 damage per round for a room.

Of course the Monk drops Ring of Frost for Wish Ring themselves and burns it to equip Relic Necklace of the Spirit Drake as well - the result of which I leave as an exercise to the reader

Once we get the Mage Powers sorted out we'll probably be adding several hundred to this damage total with the "Boost Ally" mage power described here: truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=640&id=251677&start=0

The problem with your math is you can add all of those things to the Plus 70 barbarian and now he is at Plus 86 with an average token damage of 14 and he too is doing that damage level, and he is hitting 100 percent of the time with both a higher to hit and slding one handed...criting 20 percent of the time for a higher average...and it is harder for a Ranger than a Monk...again, not so much of a gap as people seem to think.

archmage78 wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: [

Rangers and Monks can average 140+ damage per round each without crit so I have no idea why the Wizards doing the same damage, at the cost of lost HP would be an issue.

Can you please link a chacter build for these outputs? I play Ranger and I am as absolutely maxed out as I can build and I can't touch 140 plus points of damage without a critical hit. I am seriously not understanding where you got these numbers.

Wizards can do a lot more than 140 points of damage per round as well each, even if Rangers could get to that number.

archmage78 wrote: The problem with your math is you can add all of those things to the Plus 70 barbarian and now he is at Plus 86 with an average token damage of 14 and he too is doing that damage level, and he is hitting 100 percent of the time with both a higher to hit and slding one handed...criting 20 percent of the time for a higher average...and it is harder for a Ranger than a Monk...again, not so much of a gap as people seem to think.

His logic is also around VTD, where crit is double range, if you can give any other class 18-20 crit and enough extra it helps them 10% more than the theoretical build. Also, in TD a 1 is always a miss IIRC and should just be a blank space on the board (they are normally misses also).

macxdmg wrote:

archmage78 wrote: The problem with your math is you can add all of those things to the Plus 70 barbarian and now he is at Plus 86 with an average token damage of 14 and he too is doing that damage level, and he is hitting 100 percent of the time with both a higher to hit and slding one handed...criting 20 percent of the time for a higher average...and it is harder for a Ranger than a Monk...again, not so much of a gap as people seem to think.

His logic is also around VTD, where crit is double range, if you can give any other class 18-20 crit and enough extra it helps them 10% more than the theoretical build. Also, in TD a 1 is always a miss IIRC and should just be a blank space on the board (they are normally misses also).

+1

Or if you hit the back bumper it is going to be a miss as well. Others pointed out in the other thread that 1d10+10 in VTD is not the best solution for simulating a hit. Something like 2d6+8 would be better.

Others have also pointed out that casters are getting a version closer to the real game because spell checks are still available while sliding is not. Maybe in VTD it is ok if “sliding” attacks crit more often to keep the game more interesting for non-caster classes.

The one thing that I am sure of though is that VTD should not be used to balance damage for classes in TD based on 1d10+10 as the chance of getting a critical on a sliding board.

OrionW wrote: The one thing that I am sure of though is that VTD should not be used to balance damage for classes in TD based on 1d10+10 as the chance of getting a critical on a sliding board.

Absolutely 💯% agree!

archmage78 wrote: First, it is interesting that you aren't paying attention to what the Mages are doing as they usually kill things before sliders even get a chance to slide. Their damage output is absoutely incredable.

Not at any level I've ever played, though the only time I ever play Nightmare is when I'm running with a group on this forum gracious enough to allow me to lower their damage output. I assure you there aren't shadowy cabals of Wizards going around nuking everything on Normal.

FWIW, I threw together a Barbarian build roughly equivalent to my melee Ranger with the tokens that I have, and my damage bonus went from +10 to +16, in case anyone needs that data point. (And would probably go higher if I had anything that booster two-handed attacks.)

OrionW wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

archmage78 wrote: The problem with your math is you can add all of those things to the Plus 70 barbarian and now he is at Plus 86 with an average token damage of 14 and he too is doing that damage level, and he is hitting 100 percent of the time with both a higher to hit and slding one handed...criting 20 percent of the time for a higher average...and it is harder for a Ranger than a Monk...again, not so much of a gap as people seem to think.

His logic is also around VTD, where crit is double range, if you can give any other class 18-20 crit and enough extra it helps them 10% more than the theoretical build. Also, in TD a 1 is always a miss IIRC and should just be a blank space on the board (they are normally misses also).

+1

Or if you hit the back bumper it is going to be a miss as well. Others pointed out in the other thread that 1d10+10 in VTD is not the best solution for simulating a hit. Something like 2d6+8 would be better.

Others have also pointed out that casters are getting a version closer to the real game because spell checks are still available while sliding is not. Maybe in VTD it is ok if “sliding” attacks crit more often to keep the game more interesting for non-caster classes.

The one thing that I am sure of though is that VTD should not be used to balance damage for classes in TD based on 1d10+10 as the chance of getting a critical on a sliding board.

Looking for a way to make VTD sliding probabilities better match real TD is difficult. Obviously, there is no bumping/blocking/backstopping. But in general, I feel that result chances for sliding don't follow a curve that is easily represented by dice rolls...

I see sliding chances more as a wave. There is a high chance of a miss, due to blank areas on the board or hitting the back board. Then the low numbers, up to 14, have a low chance, gradually increasing up until about 17, which is the peak chance. Then it drops down again until 20 again has a smaller chance.

Of course, different boards can greatly affect this; the board with the whole head as a 20 will see a spike of crits. And so on.
Basically, there is a lot of interesting stuff going on with the slider boards that can't be duplicated in VTD.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

OrionW wrote: The one thing that I am sure of though is that VTD should not be used to balance damage for classes in TD based on 1d10+10 as the chance of getting a critical on a sliding board.

Absolutely 💯% agree!

Also 100% agree.

archmage78 wrote: The problem with your math is you can add all of those things to the Plus 70 barbarian and now he is at Plus 86 with an average token damage of 14 and he too is doing that damage level, and he is hitting 100 percent of the time with both a higher to hit and slding one handed...criting 20 percent of the time for a higher average...and it is harder for a Ranger than a Monk...again, not so much of a gap as people seem to think.

How is the Barbarian critting 20% of the time with an average token damage of 14?

kurtreznor wrote:

OrionW wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

archmage78 wrote: The problem with your math is you can add all of those things to the Plus 70 barbarian and now he is at Plus 86 with an average token damage of 14 and he too is doing that damage level, and he is hitting 100 percent of the time with both a higher to hit and slding one handed...criting 20 percent of the time for a higher average...and it is harder for a Ranger than a Monk...again, not so much of a gap as people seem to think.

His logic is also around VTD, where crit is double range, if you can give any other class 18-20 crit and enough extra it helps them 10% more than the theoretical build. Also, in TD a 1 is always a miss IIRC and should just be a blank space on the board (they are normally misses also).

+1

Or if you hit the back bumper it is going to be a miss as well. Others pointed out in the other thread that 1d10+10 in VTD is not the best solution for simulating a hit. Something like 2d6+8 would be better.

Others have also pointed out that casters are getting a version closer to the real game because spell checks are still available while sliding is not. Maybe in VTD it is ok if “sliding” attacks crit more often to keep the game more interesting for non-caster classes.

The one thing that I am sure of though is that VTD should not be used to balance damage for classes in TD based on 1d10+10 as the chance of getting a critical on a sliding board.

Looking for a way to make VTD sliding probabilities better match real TD is difficult. Obviously, there is no bumping/blocking/backstopping. But in general, I feel that result chances for sliding don't follow a curve that is easily represented by dice rolls...

I see sliding chances more as a wave. There is a high chance of a miss, due to blank areas on the board or hitting the back board. Then the low numbers, up to 14, have a low chance, gradually increasing up until about 17, which is the peak chance. Then it drops down again until 20 again has a smaller chance.

Of course, different boards can greatly affect this; the board with the whole head as a 20 will see a spike of crits. And so on.
Basically, there is a lot of interesting stuff going on with the slider boards that can't be duplicated in VTD.

In VTD, the board could be approiximated using a d100 for rolling to Hit.

For each monster TD could make ranges that would approximate the area of the physical board.

Example:
Location:_D100____D20 value
Head____97-100___20
Head____90-93____19
R Arm___80-84____18
L Arm___75-79____17
Torso____66-74____16
Torso____56-65____15
Torso____24-55____14
R Leg____23-34____13
L Leg____16-18____12
Miss____1-15, 19-22, 35-45, 85-89, 94-96____1


Here is the hard part: the GM would need to convert the D100 to a D20 value to tell the player if the d100 roll hit.

The App could do the conversion, but the app would have to know the monster in the combat and the d100 hit table. That seems a lot for a free app. But I am no developer, just a software analyst.